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98 16v trackick idles very low/surges, no power below 4000 rpm

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Offline mojoincolorado

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98 16v trackick idles very low/surges, no power below 4000 rpm
« on: November 13, 2012, 10:21:51 AM »
Ok, this problem has three stages it degraded to:

1. Truck started, but no cold temp high idle.  Otherwise ran fine.  It hadn't been used a lot over the summer, but had been driven a couple of times a month.  (October is when the trouble started).

2. Truck would start as above, but then it would occasionally drop to ~500 rpm, then surge DOWN to almost off, then back to 500 or so.  I couldn't increase the rpm above this, either with a simple press of the accelerator or by taking off (it wouldn't go -- no power).
 Playing with the throttle would not usually kill it, but if I got in synch with the surge I could eventually get it to the base idle (800 rpm).  Sometimes it would go back to 80 rpm on its own.  Noticed that my engine check light was off (it is ALWAYS on for misc. missing).  Strange.  I would think this would be setting off more errors.

3. Drove to hunting camp (~8500 ft).  Had to drive in 2nd/3rd (downhill in 4th) to make it (Eisenhower tunnel & Vail Pass), definitely lower on power as the trip progressed, kept the rpms above 4500, still slowed to 35 on moderate hills as the day progressed (~250 mile trip).  MPG had dropped to 15 from my more expected 21-22.  

 At camp a few days later, wouldn't start (temps in the 50~65 range).  Tried starting fluid in the intake hose in front of the air cleaner.  Checked for spark on a cylinder.  Adjusted distributor while cranking (no luck, returned to original position).  Removed front two plugs, both wet, dark.  Loosened fuel rail end plug; turned ignition on, had fuel. Removed distributor cap, confirmed no corrosion.    Gave up, decided to tow it to the paved road.  

While being towed, got it to start (bump start) if the rpm was above 2000.  Got it to run and stay running (cold:4000 rpm) until it warmed up.  Kept it in low range, was able to get down the mountain.  Decided to look for vacuum leaks as best I could (wished I had the starting fluid, would have been easier).  Pinched off a few lines (used a pair of pliers).  Found when I pinched  the bypass line to the IAC that  would kill the engine.  Restarted and noticed there was a high pitch/volume sound coming from this line that I hadn't noticed before.  Drove the truck to the next town and back, didn't turn off the engine, did notice that power was definitely lower.

4. Pull started it to leave and go home.  Mid-20's.  Power worse, as going home got down to 2L and 15 mph on the steepest grades (11 mpg last stop).  Also, pulled off for gas and liked to never have gotten off the city road into a parking lot.  Truck stalled, then finally got it to start, then worked it to get it above the surge/500 rpm max to real idle.  Slipping the clutch to keep it above 4000 rpm.  Getting back on the fwy, I put it in low, unlocked. Still had to push it out of the road.  Got it started and rpm up, then gunned it through the intersection and on the on ramp ("gun" is not the correct term: babied it across the intersection is).

Made it to Denver and had it towed home (couldn't accelerate once I stopped and within range of my AAA towing).

So, current troubleshooting status:

1. 1st attempt at starting, a very slight firing (a blip if you will, not eager).  Nothing after this, which appears to work once in a day, not each time.  Except for the bump start, this thing is DEAD.

2, Engine Check Light comes on when the key is turned to the on position.

3. Used my scanner, found no codes set, only 1 code pending (P0400, egr).

4. Going to inspect the TPS, anything else I can get to (crank position sensor, hoses, wiring).  Plan to bypass/plug as many vac hoses as I can until it will start.  

Any ideas?

Truck has ~190,000 miles, 235x15 tires, nothing else is modified.   No new parts in the last 6 months.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2012, 10:27:01 AM by mojoincolorado »

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Offline Rhinoman

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Re: 98 16v trackick idles very low/surges, no power below 4000 rpm
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2012, 10:49:21 AM »
Check the compression, poor low speed running can often be a sign of a bad crankshaft keyway. otherwise its the usual stuff, fuel pressure, spark plugs, EGR, blockied cat?
2000 Vitara 1.6, 3+3 Lift, 33"MTs, 5:83s, LWB brakes, Winch, Snorkel, Safari Rack
1986 SJ413K PickUp, 1.6L conversion.

OBD1 - Full diagnostics on a PC/Laptop: http://www.rhinopower.org

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Offline mojoincolorado

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Re: 98 16v trackick idles very low/surges, no power below 4000 rpm
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2012, 01:37:59 PM »
1st round of troubleshooting:
1. IAC works (unplug, solid;plugged in, open).
2. Plugged vacuum lines, still no no start.
3. Checked the TPS.  Pot & switch seem appropriate.  Resistance/travel seems consistent.
4. Crank position sensor resistance is good.  Nicked (likely on a past timing  belt change) but dirty and no 'trail' through the debris (all would be consistent with a crank pulley bolt problem--loose/wobbling and trigger teeth hitting the sensor).  Sensor responds to passing by metal.
5. EGR opens with vacuum applied, presumably closes.

May block off the EGR passage on the intake manifold.  Ought to be able to loosen it up and slid something in there

Going to follow up with fuel test.
Also, far side here, I have a spare MAF.  May just swap it in.

Wished some codes were stored!

Still: 
Why did the cold idle speed stop working, and the idle run at 800 (when cold)? 
Why did the codes all clear?  Any misses should still be happening.  Unless it's running too lean?

Thanks for the comments Rhinoman. 



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Offline Rhinoman

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Re: 98 16v trackick idles very low/surges, no power below 4000 rpm
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2012, 02:55:45 PM »
Is it actually missing or just running slowly? if its the later then it won't detect a misfire, the ECU is looking for erratic timing from the crank sensor. Do you have a scan tool that can show live data? the OBD2 link is fairly limited compared to the OBD1 interface but its still gives good data.
2000 Vitara 1.6, 3+3 Lift, 33"MTs, 5:83s, LWB brakes, Winch, Snorkel, Safari Rack
1986 SJ413K PickUp, 1.6L conversion.

OBD1 - Full diagnostics on a PC/Laptop: http://www.rhinopower.org

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Offline bentparts

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Re: 98 16v trackick idles very low/surges, no power below 4000 rpm
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2012, 03:44:49 PM »
I agree with Rhinoman and still think a compression check would be useful. 190000 miles is gettin up there, and driving at altitude will only magnify any weakness in a tired engine. You may just have a very weak cylinder. worth checking.
The usual stuff, and 2nd generation Air to liquid intercooled TURBOCHARGER

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Offline mojoincolorado

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Re: 98 16v trackick idles very low/surges, no power below 4000 rpm
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2012, 08:58:01 PM »
I'm sure the compression is low -- iirc though a cold crank compression check isn't particularly useful. I probably will check it, as well check the crank pulley.

Went looking for a fuel pressure gage, but didn't have any luck finding a fuel rail adapter.  Autozone's kit adapted to a large Schrader type valve, a lot like an A/C connector.  I wanted to see what the adapter that was assembled used for a pipe thread.  I think I could find a plug (even junk yard) and drill/tape to fit.

Any ideas for alternative locations to measure the fuel pressure at?

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Offline bentparts

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Re: 98 16v trackick idles very low/surges, no power below 4000 rpm
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2012, 05:24:03 PM »
The plug is a good place, just find a junk one and drill/tap to fit. I got a pressure adapter in my GM service kit for Geo's. unfortunately it didn't fit the guage I had, so I just drilled mine and tapped it, then added a guage to the end of the rail with an adjustable regulator when I did my turbo. Just leave the guage in place.
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Offline talonxracer

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Re: 98 16v trackick idles very low/surges, no power below 4000 rpm
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2012, 05:56:38 PM »
Sure sounds exactly like what happens when the keyway is shot, retards the camshaft and ignition timing, get a timing light on it or actually check the crank bolt and key/keyway.
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Offline mojoincolorado

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Re: 98 16v trackick idles very low/surges, no power below 4000 rpm
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2012, 10:28:46 PM »
So, steps I took today:

1. Blocked the EGR to intake connection.  No change.  Didn't really expect any, but it plugged a hole in the intake and confirmed it isn't an  immediate issue.

2. Confirmed crank at 0-5 degrees and distro was pointing at the right spark wire.

3. Checked compression cold.  Dry & wet.  I did find the plugs (at least 1-3) were wet with fuel.
Cyl 1 dry/wet:  65/95
Cyl2 dry/wet:   65/65
Cyl3 dry/wet:   65/78
Cyl4 dry/wet:   70/70.
Wet: squirted in ~ 5 strokes of oil in the cylinder.  Tester is an old reliable rubber hose and short screw in adapter (versus a tall pipe you can screw in and confirm a good tight fit.  Not real pleased with cold compression tests, but iirc this is not too far off.  At least there is confirmation I have compression.

4. While attempting to turn the crank and look under the timing belt cover to see if the cam and crank timing appears correct I noticed the dreaded 'pulley movement'.  Yeap, them crank belt pulleys are just jostling around down there.   Removed the belts and pulleys, radiator and fan.  Timing belt cover and the crank bolt came off (service manual says to not touch the crank pulley bolt when changing a timing belt -- so I doubt I have ever touched the bolt).  Took a lot to get the bolt out.  The end stripped out the end of the crank, though only after it was significantly out.  Lots of key way wear, in a slant.  The pulley was ~1 width of the key off.  Broke off a couple of timing teeth, so will be visiting the junkyard.  A sign or confirmation of this happening is that the timing teeth are shaving off aluminum from the front of the block (leaving shiny bits under the timing belt cover).

I am reserving my opinion on the base cause of this problem, but now it's apart with a clear problem in the crank keyway.  Will have to research how much I can get away with in filling the slot.  I am more interested in a rebuilt engine (or at least a modest mileage one) with this many miles on the original engine.  Maybe find that just right 99+ w/2.0L?!   I will be at the junkyard anyhow, I popped the heated air nipple on the plastic intake tube (I could epoxy it back I guess).  Might just grab a spare distro if the price is right.

Decisons to be made I guess!

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Offline bentparts

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Re: 98 16v trackick idles very low/surges, no power below 4000 rpm
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2012, 04:17:14 AM »
I think your making the right decision in looking for a replacement engine, with compression numbers like that it wouldn't be worth repairing it, unless you intended on doing a full rebuild. Did you look into a JDM engine ?
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Offline Rhinoman

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Re: 98 16v trackick idles very low/surges, no power below 4000 rpm
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2012, 12:37:06 PM »
The low compression could just be caused by the bad keyway because the valve timing will be way out.
2000 Vitara 1.6, 3+3 Lift, 33"MTs, 5:83s, LWB brakes, Winch, Snorkel, Safari Rack
1986 SJ413K PickUp, 1.6L conversion.

OBD1 - Full diagnostics on a PC/Laptop: http://www.rhinopower.org