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Engine gets a little hot, OK?

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Offline RalphARoni

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Engine gets a little hot, OK?
« on: October 03, 2019, 09:25:26 AM »
Our stock 96 Tracker 2dr, 1600cc is fairly new to us. When we went to the outer banks we did a lot of driving in loose soft sand. On one  I noticed that the engine got pretty warm but the gauge never left the center. I could not go slowly because of the soft sand and ruts.   When we parked  I shut it off normally and it was slow to crank after about 20 min. After that I let it run for a couple of minutes before shutting it down and had no further starting problem.  It still gets pretty warm under the hood though. The AC  was running which turns on the electric fan and I heard that is good. We were in 4w low and I let the auto trans pick it's gears. It tended to stay in second. It was hard work for that engine but no problems. We will normally use it on dirt road and sand. Probably won't rock crawl. May ford streams but not deep. Mostly we want to go where we couldn't go before. Climb Pikes Peal maybe. I do want to get home though.
Questions:
Cars got warm back then but am I shortening it's life much?
I plan to change the water pump, thermostat  and timing belt in a week or so. Should I replace the radiator while I am in there and will an inexpensive new radiator be any better?
Should I add a switch to put the fan on when needed?
What about a flushing?
 
 
'96 Geo Tracker 2 dr auto 4wd 15" wheels, 23" tires, named "GT" and towed behind the motorhome

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Offline RalphARoni

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Re: Engine gets a little hot, OK?
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2019, 10:10:33 AM »
'96 Geo Tracker 2 dr auto 4wd 15" wheels, 23" tires, named "GT" and towed behind the motorhome

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Online fordem

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Re: Engine gets a little hot, OK?
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2019, 12:56:52 PM »
When you're in sand the additional load forces the transmission's torque converter to "churn" the fluid which typically generates considerable amounts of heat and that would have transferred to the vehicle cooling system.  Excessive heat will shorten the life of the transmission fluid and also the transmission, you may want to consider changing the fluid more often.

If you're going to be in soft sand frequently, consider fitting an external transmission cooler and a transmission temperature gauge, fit the temperature gauge sender on the output line from the transmission to the external cooler, and then go from the external cooler to the heat exchanger in the bottom of the radiator, and then back to the transmission as normal.  The reason I'm specifying how you sequence these items is that with the gauge sender at the transmission output you know how hot the fluid is getting, the external cooler will "dump" the heat before it reaches the cooling system, and in the event that the transmission fluid becomes "over cooled" by the external cooler, it will be warmed by the heat exchange in the radiator - this last is only a requirement in climates that experience colder weather.

I see no need to replace the radiator, unless there is an issue with it - at this point it appears that the heat you're concerned about is a "one off" instance in the outer banks, so I'm thinking it was caused by the sand, rather than a cooling system fault.  The timing belt is a service item, and needs to be done, I believe at 60,000 mile intervals - if you don't know the change history, it's a good idea to get it done, many folks replace the water pump at the same time because of the labor costs that would be required if it had to be done separately, however, I personally see no reason to do that, possibly because I can do it myself in my driveway and don't have to pay a shop.

A cooling system flush & refill with fresh coolant is also a service item, so if you don't know when last it was done, it's a good idea to do it, along with all the other fluids.
'98 SQ420 Grand Vitara
'05 JB420 Grand Vitara
'16 APK416 Vitara
'21 A6G415 Jimny

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Offline Drone637

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Re: Engine gets a little hot, OK?
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2019, 01:03:43 PM »
If steam isn't blowing out from the radiator your pretty safe that you haven't killed the motor.  :D

A separate cooler for the transmission is a good idea, just make sure you have a way to run a temp sensor to it so it can turn on the electric fan.

Flushing the coolant isn't a bad idea, might be easier to have a shop do it so you don't need to dispose of the old coolant.
96 Geo Tracker, x-SJ-410,  x-White Rabbit, x-Project Trouble
Crawlers NorthWest
x-Trouble Racing

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Offline RalphARoni

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Re: Engine gets a little hot, OK?
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2019, 04:36:01 AM »
Thanks to the both of you. The info helps. I will look at getting an additional trans cooler, esp. since a 13yo auto trans could be a weak point. Water pump is easy once I have the belt off so I bought one,  I am doing all maintenance and belts and hoses now since there are no records but I think they were good about it since all fluids are clean and everything looks tidy. I will add the flush to the list. Would like to raise the suspension 2" too. Any more and it might act more top heavy I think.
'96 Geo Tracker 2 dr auto 4wd 15" wheels, 23" tires, named "GT" and towed behind the motorhome

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Online fordem

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Re: Engine gets a little hot, OK?
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2019, 10:29:34 AM »
Would like to raise the suspension 2" too. Any more and it might act more top heavy I think.

That might depend on how you lift it - spacer lifts are popular because they are inexpensive - Low Range Off Road had a couple of different kits, and you can download the instructions before you buy so you can see what you're getting yourself into, a set of springs, struts & shocks by Old Man Emu (also available from Low Range) will give you about 30mm of lift, along with a much improved ride (at least on the four doors), and you shouldn't have any "top heavy" feel - the higher spring rate compensates for the raised center of gravity - this route is of course, more expensive.
'98 SQ420 Grand Vitara
'05 JB420 Grand Vitara
'16 APK416 Vitara
'21 A6G415 Jimny

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Offline Drone637

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Re: Engine gets a little hot, OK?
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2019, 01:40:34 PM »
When your replacing the water pump make sure you put in a new timing belt and front main seal.  No reason to not replace them while you have things torn apart.
96 Geo Tracker, x-SJ-410,  x-White Rabbit, x-Project Trouble
Crawlers NorthWest
x-Trouble Racing

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Offline RalphARoni

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Re: Engine gets a little hot, OK?
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2019, 03:26:07 PM »
When your replacing the water pump make sure you put in a new timing belt and front main seal.  No reason to not replace them while you have things torn apart.
Yes. That is the actual reason for the work. I have no idea when or if the belt has been changed so that is prime. While I am in there I plan to change all of the hoses and the other belts too. Beats walking back in the Ghobi Desert! Hadn't thought about the main seal. Do they go bad? Are they hard to replace? Never done one.
'96 Geo Tracker 2 dr auto 4wd 15" wheels, 23" tires, named "GT" and towed behind the motorhome

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Offline RalphARoni

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Re: Engine gets a little hot, OK?
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2019, 03:41:55 PM »
That might depend on how you lift it - spacer lifts are popular because they are inexpensive - Low Range Off Road had a couple of different kits, and you can download the instructions before you buy so you can see what you're getting yourself into, a set of springs, struts & shocks by Old Man Emu (also available from Low Range) will give you about 30mm of lift, along with a much improved ride (at least on the four doors), and you shouldn't have any "top heavy" feel - the higher spring rate compensates for the raised center of gravity - this route is of course, more expensive.

This is the question for me. On bumpy roads I or sand ruts with undulating bottoms I have to slow down a lot. Perhaps new rear shocks might help but that is why I am thinking about the  suspension. So if I go softer I will get more body roll and if I go longer I will need stiffer springs. If I add spacers I will get roll too. Can I go up a bit, keep stability and improve the ride? I won't be creeping over boulders but more often going places on dirt. I guess I could go and study the topics on suspension for that. Just getting started.
'96 Geo Tracker 2 dr auto 4wd 15" wheels, 23" tires, named "GT" and towed behind the motorhome

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Offline fuzzy1

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Re: Engine gets a little hot, OK?
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2019, 09:34:05 AM »
This is the question for me. On bumpy roads I or sand ruts with undulating bottoms I have to slow down a lot. Perhaps new rear shocks might help but that is why I am thinking about the  suspension. So if I go softer I will get more body roll and if I go longer I will need stiffer springs. If I add spacers I will get roll too. Can I go up a bit, keep stability and improve the ride? I won't be creeping over boulders but more often going places on dirt. I guess I could go and study the topics on suspension for that. Just getting started.

The best thing I have done for both the Trackicks I've owned is OME suspension. On my '96 it took it from an annoying uncomfortable ride & made it a completely different feel both in ride comfort & handling. I only recently put OME rear springs on my '97 Sport, which took it from a car that hit me in the back over every highway bridge joint, to a much more pleasant driving vehicle. IMO the OME springs make a HUGE difference!
'97 Sidekick Sport 1" spacer lift 225/75R16 Cooper AT's. Pioneer Sound, 14" Grant Steering Wheel.Otherwise mostly stock
'96 Tracker 1.6l 16v 3spd Auto 4x4 85k - 1 1/2" OME Lift BFG 235/75 AT's on Ion Alloy 15x7's - Pioneer Sound - Custom Installed Hydraulic Drivers Seat (Sold)

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Offline RalphARoni

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Re: Engine gets a little hot, OK?
« Reply #10 on: October 06, 2019, 11:57:08 AM »
The best thing I have done for both the Trackicks I've owned is OME suspension. On my '96 it took it from an annoying uncomfortable ride & made it a completely different feel both in ride comfort & handling. I only recently put OME rear springs on my '97 Sport, which took it from a car that hit me in the back over every highway bridge joint, to a much more pleasant driving vehicle. IMO the OME springs make a HUGE difference!
Thanks. I plan to call OME when I am ready then. That is just what I need.
'96 Geo Tracker 2 dr auto 4wd 15" wheels, 23" tires, named "GT" and towed behind the motorhome

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Offline Drone637

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Re: Engine gets a little hot, OK?
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2019, 02:42:03 PM »
Yes. That is the actual reason for the work. I have no idea when or if the belt has been changed so that is prime. While I am in there I plan to change all of the hoses and the other belts too. Beats walking back in the Ghobi Desert! Hadn't thought about the main seal. Do they go bad? Are they hard to replace? Never done one.

They are really easy to replace, only issue is you might need a bearing puller to pop the timing gear off.  And make sure the key is in place properly when you put it back together.

They don't go bad as often. But few things are more annoying then pulling everything apart, putting it back together, then having it start leaking a few thousand miles later and take it all back apart again.  Similar to the water pump, just replace it and be on the safe side.

96 Geo Tracker, x-SJ-410,  x-White Rabbit, x-Project Trouble
Crawlers NorthWest
x-Trouble Racing

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Offline RalphARoni

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Re: Engine gets a little hot, OK?
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2019, 07:11:51 AM »
When you're in sand the additional load forces the transmission's torque converter to "churn" the fluid which typically generates considerable amounts of heat and that would have transferred to the vehicle cooling system.  Excessive heat will shorten the life of the transmission fluid and also the transmission, you may want to consider changing the fluid more often.

If you're going to be in soft sand frequently, consider fitting an external transmission cooler and a transmission temperature gauge, fit the temperature gauge sender on the output line from the transmission to the external cooler, and then go from the external cooler to the heat exchanger in the bottom of the radiator, and then back to the transmission as normal.  The reason I'm specifying how you sequence these items is that with the gauge sender at the transmission output you know how hot the fluid is getting, the external cooler will "dump" the heat before it reaches the cooling system, and in the event that the transmission fluid becomes "over cooled" by the external cooler, it will be warmed by the heat exchange in the radiator - this last is only a requirement in climates that experience colder weather.

I see no need to replace the radiator, unless there is an issue with it - at this point it appears that the heat you're concerned about is a "one off" instance in the outer banks, so I'm thinking it was caused by the sand, rather than a cooling system fault.  The timing belt is a service item, and needs to be done, I believe at 60,000 mile intervals - if you don't know the change history, it's a good idea to get it done, many folks replace the water pump at the same time because of the labor costs that would be required if it had to be done separately, however, I personally see no reason to do that, possibly because I can do it myself in my driveway and don't have to pay a shop.

A cooling system flush & refill with fresh coolant is also a service item, so if you don't know when last it was done, it's a good idea to do it, along with all the other fluids.
Thanks. Doing what you suggested. Funny you should mention sand...I have had an ongoing slow oil leak and the sand has mixed with the oil and made the nastiest mess on the underside I have even worked in! I have also re sealed the oil pan just now.  I have trans cooler mounted but am not sure which side of the existing radiator  cooler to connect it to. Can't find anything here. I also can't run the engine to see what gets hot due to other things I am working on. Do you remember which side you installed your hoses to?
'96 Geo Tracker 2 dr auto 4wd 15" wheels, 23" tires, named "GT" and towed behind the motorhome

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Online fordem

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Re: Engine gets a little hot, OK?
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2019, 12:49:19 PM »
I don't have the same vehicle that you do, but from the parts catalogue for a two door 96, the outlet line should go to the the left (driver) side of the radiator cooler.
'98 SQ420 Grand Vitara
'05 JB420 Grand Vitara
'16 APK416 Vitara
'21 A6G415 Jimny

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Offline RalphARoni

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Re: Engine gets a little hot, OK?
« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2019, 06:54:25 AM »
I am a little concerned about posting this because I do appreciate the advice I get here and don't want you to think I don't appreciate it but someone else might come looking for answers so here goes. It is always possible that a previous owner got the lines on backwards on the trans side. I needed to get the trucklet out of the workspace  so yesterday I filled up the motor with oil, put the trans pan back on and filled it then removed both lines from the radiator cooler and put them in milk jugs.  I had the DW start the car and fluid squirted out of the passenger side so I put the cooler on that side. Because of the discrepancy here it might be best to do it that way when installing a cooler.
'96 Geo Tracker 2 dr auto 4wd 15" wheels, 23" tires, named "GT" and towed behind the motorhome