Hello all,

To start with this is my first ZUK (1986 SAM), just got it and have no history on motor, been looking for one a couple of years and finely found one in the price range… And I got what I Paid For (HA!).

Ok, here is the problem I have… O’yea the Sam is ALL stock, motor, carb., etc.(Speed-o shows 90K)!

1) Motor runs (fair – not good – just does), does not like to idle much, but will.

a. Unplugged / Re-plugged ECU.
b. Can’t find ground wire for the Distributor. Where should it be located?
c. Not sure about the EGR, but think it’s working correctly.
d. All vacuum lines and ports in use, nothing open. Best I can tell lines are plumed right. (have two shop manuals and comparing notes)
e. This problem will probably go away with the resolution of number 2 below :>)

2) On the exhaust manifold cyl. 3 and 4, oil seeping from the bolts and also around the donut gasket, no oil on cyl. 1 and 2. Does not smoke until engine reaches operating temp, then smokes blue with really light white, smells like oil. Starts running worse. That being said... cyl 3 and 4 getting oil from some where?

a. The head looks clean, as if the head was rebuilt recently and I was told it was.
b. Ran compression check with the motor at operating temp with all 4 plugs removed and coil disconnected, got 180 to 185 on all four.
c. Checked PCV and it is operating normally, will open and close.
d. Ran motor at operating temp and removed plug wires one at a time… cyl 1 – hitting GOOD, motor reacted to wire removed. Cyl 2 – same thing. Cyl 3 – you could tell I removed the wire, but “very little� affect on the running of the motor. Cyl 4 – same as 3. Note: all 4 cyl’s/plugs are getting lots of fire.
e. Swapped wires and plugs… no change.
f. All vacuum lines and ports in use, nothing open. Best I can tell lines are plumed right. (have two shop manuals and comparing notes)

Can this be a valve issue, oil getting to the combustion chamber via valve stem? I really have a hard time believing oil could be getting by the rings with over 180 compression? However, if this is a new head job that really confuses me, but was it a good job? Who knows! Can it be as simple as the head gasket, remember it has good compression with the plugs out. HELP!

What course of action should I take from here? Not sure if I should just pull the head and take it to the shop and hope the bottom-end is ok? Anyone that has some experience with this engine/head please enlighten me!


SWCZUK - I will CRAWL someday! 

If it was me....

Back to basics
- Vacuum test, what are you getting? (there is some good info on the RallyKick thread)
- Pressure test cooling system (cracked head, head gasket letting coolant seep in cylinders)

If that doesn't find it then get the engine on TDC #1...
- Check timing belt for correct valve timing, might be out of time)
- Check Distributor position (might be out)
- Check firing order (stranger things have happened)
- Check all the usual tune up goodies (rotor, cap, spark plugs etc)
- Check PCV system, could be a bad one
- Valves adjusted too tight/loose? Screwing up the valve timing?

You know the bottom is ok as the compressions are even and in the right range, so it's gotta be in the head or accessories.

I'm thinking as it seems to be confined to cylinders 3-4, gets worse with temp and you are getting some white smoke that it's a crack in the head or the head gasket seeping coolant between 3-4.

Just because the head has been done doesn't mean it was done right or installed right.

Let us know how it goes...

Zag

I'm throwing a guess out ...

check the clearance on the valves. #3 and#4 might be too tight and letting *some* blowby.

The "smoking" could be guides worn, but a recent head rebuild shoulda got new guides (dunno maybe someone didn't do that tho).

Did the 3 and 4 plugs show any carbon from oil?

Sounds like your diagnosis is fair, but is it just and idle problem? What about under load?

I'm still guessing, but maybe idle is realted to the carb, and the "smoke" is related to valves.

b. Can’t find ground wire for the Distributor. Where should it be located?

SWCZUK - I will CRAWL someday! 

The ground wire for the distributor should be connected to the firewall via a screw and a short black pigtail with a connector on it that matches the one coming off the distributor.

I just threw away two of these while cleaning out the garage last week.  Sorry.

The next best solution is to build up a 6 to 8 -inch wire with a ring connector on one end that will fit over a 10mm bolt and some sort of generic socket connector on the other end.  You'll need to remove the OEM connector on the distributor ground wire and replace it with a generic plug connector to complete the assembly.

Usually, having that distributor ground wire disconnected results in no running at all!

Hope this helps!

Check the firing order, sounds
like plug 3 and 4 are switched

firing order is 1,3,4,2 clockwise

Wild

Zazzy:   
I will get a vac gage and try. I have never pressure tested the cooling system and will look into that one. I’ll have to check the timing belt. Dist. Position should be good. Firing order is on the money. Tune up goodies rotor and cap look new, plugs and wires were swapped with no change. The PCV seems to be good, valve is not stuck and only a small amount of oil in the line, just a film, not dripping. QUESTION: if valve timing was off, would it show in the compression test… I.E. if it did not close all the way due to being to tight would/should the reading be low?

I’m thinking the head too, hoping not a crack… Question, would the compression be that good if the head had a crack? Or if the gasket was bad?


SnoFalls:
Can clearance let oil by the valve seal? I’ll check clearance too. Plugs one and two show carbon, three and four just plain wet with oil, and yes carbon. Due to the running condition of the Sam, I have only drove it around the yard (1st and 2nd gear.). it will run as long as you stay on the gas, say above 2000 RPM and it don’t seem to have an abundance of power. I’ll probably have to figure out the oil issue in 3 and 4 to mess with the carb?

ack:
thanks, I’ll look into that one and fab a wire.


Wildgoody:
I forgot to list that in my first post… I checked order already and it is good.


I would like to thank everyone for the input… I really think the Oil issue will need to be the first line of attack… Is there any other way for oil to get to cyl 3 and 4 other that what we talked about already?

SWCZUK – Still Got Hope!

Hey there

    If the cam is out 3-4 teeth in timing it would not really show in a compression test. Same with a coolant leak into the cylinders or a crack...thats why you need to test the coolant system to check foor leak down.
     What catches my eye from your post is "it gets worse as it gets to operating temp" and "whitish smoke"...these 2 symptoms usually indicate a coolant leak to the cylinders. That combined with the recent head work of unknown quality leads me to think you'll find your answer in the coolant system test.
     You say there is "oil" around exhaust manifold bolts, exhaust donut and on the plugs, are you sure it's oil? If you've not seen it before anti freeze (once through the cylinder) can look very similar...my test...touch a drop to your tongue...antifreeze will taste slightly sweet, oil won't.
     I'm thinking you might be seeing antifreeze instead of oil...which leads me back to the cylinder head and gasket.

Zag

I was thinking the same thing. (about the antifreeze and cooling system).
A few months back I had a water pump that was leaking, so I replaced it and in so doing the crankshaft and camshaft were not reset properly.  the timing belt was shifted about 2 teeth.  When I started it up and set the timing, everything looked great.  But when I started driving it I had a whole plethora of minor problems, overall the thing just didn't have power and the fuel milage really sucked.  I didn't even think about the timing belt being an issue and ended up taking the carb off to rebuild it, (after messing with timing again, replacing plugs checking dist, etc.) in the process of the rebuild I broke the stupid fuel sensor relay thingy in the carb (don't EVER do that!!)  and ended up purchasing a used carb because of it. Even it didn't help and I still had the same problems.  Fortunately?... that dumb little timing belt tensioner arm broke on me shortly thereafter and when I replaced it I found the problem with the timing belt as well and reset top to bottom on the engine.  Worked great from then on til an idiot in a minivan redecorated my tailgate and bumpers in rush hour traffic...  I hope to be back on the road (and maybe off too) by the end of the month...
  just make sure to check the timing before turning to the carb for answers.

  good luck
 

Ok I’m working on it…

I went to Auto Zone and got a Coolant System Pressure Test Kit, I was told it would work with the small neck on the Sam, but as luck has it, it will not fit the neck and I will have to try something else later.

I did the Vac. Gauge test…   at the intake port under the carb that goes to the breather I got to 15 on the gauge (on gauge it says “Late Ign Timing |removethispart|@ 15). This reading was at 1500 RPM, That’s about as low as I could get to. Even if I rev it up to 2500 it was still not in the green (20 or so, I think.).

However, I have started checking the timing belt at the Crank and Cam Gears, here’s what I have found… 

1)   I got it to TDC, Rotor points at plug wire #1, Crank pulley mark is on Zero at timing cover mark, and the piston is visually at top, plug removed and looking in cyl. with flashlight.

2)   I removed timing belt cover, fan, crank pulley.

3)   This is where is gets wird… Crank gear timing mark is on the money… Cam gear is 180 out, the timing mark is “strait downâ€?, instead of up and in line with mark on top of belt cover.

4)   At this point I have removed the timing belt and stoped.

Question:  Should I remove the Distributor and rotate the Cam Gear to line up the gear mark and upper mark on belt cover and reinstall distributor with rotor again/still pointing to the #1 position?  What is the proper procedure for setting up timing from scratch? That way I know everything is RIGHT!


SWCZUK  --  Still Trying!

Looks like they have the Cam 180 degrees out from your description....

     Based on that I'm surprised it runs at all!!!

First question...

- Take off the valve cover, are both valves closed? Or is one open? Both should be completely closed.
 (the timing mark on the front cover will line up at TDC compression and on the exhaust cycle)
 
 This is a common mistake, be sure of the position of the valves before going any farther.

   If both valves are closed it's time for some furthur investigation, but check that first.

   I think you are not at TDC compression stroke to be honest so best to verify that first!



Proceedure from scratch is in any 1/2 a$$ed manual (Chilton/Haynes). Use it for the detail.

But very basically...
- Get it on TDC #1
- Align the marks per manual
- Install belt and tensioner

I honestly don't think you have found the problem...I think you cooling system pressure test will.

Zag

That cam is installed right, crank mark points up,
cam mark points down, don't ask why, that's the
way it is.

Yes, I know there is a mark in the rear cam cover,
yes I once installed the cam mark up, it really doesn't
matter, as long as the wires are on the right plugs.

I still think from your description the #3 made no
difference in engine speed that you have plugs out
of order again firing order 1,3,4,2 clockwise rotation
front of the engine is #1 next #2 and so forth to the
rear cylinder.

Reason I'm repeating this is
1. You have good compression
2. You have good spark
3. You have fuel because the other cylinders are firing

You have all the basics needed for an engine to run, yet
you are having trouble, I belive the spark is not hitting
the right cylinder at the right time, that or the rotor is not
put on in the right position, or has melted and spun on the
distributor shaft ( I had that happen )

BTW, to confirm that cam mark should point down for
firing #1, look at the cam lobes while it's in the down
position, the lobes should both be pointing down at about
a 45* angle (aprox) if they are pointing up, that's not firing
#1 that would be firing #4

Hope this helps,
Wild

Well, this is where it stands…

Both valves were closed, on Compression (from the start)… When I re-timed it, it would not run at all, because… The Timing mark only points “UP� on Exhaust stroke… It points “DOWN� on Compression stroke. Every rotation is the same Cam mark up, Exhaust… Cam mark down, Compression. I assure you that is what I have, I checked with a finger in the #1 Plug hole while rotating the crank with the timing belt installed. The timing mark does not rotate to the top on each cycle… Should IT?
So, basically it was in time when I started (cam mark down) and I put it out 180 out, because when timed manually and correctly the mark is off (pointing Down). How can this happen (the mark pointing wrong?), the gear is mounted to the cam and the cam has a dowel, so it can only install one way. Is the cam wrong? I also checked the Compression firing order of the Head/Cam, with the plugs out and my finger in hole #1 compression, then #3 Compression, Then #4 Compression, Then #2 Compression… so the cam is firing the right order.
The timing mark does not rotate to the top on each cycle… Should IT? Crank rotates one revolution to cam’s half … 2 Crank Rev’s = 1 Cam Rev.
Funny thing (the manuals)… both say the CAM timing mark should be pointing UP! But it will not run that way, because it’s on Exhaust stroke.

Was not able to get the right adapter to do the coolant test… so I did the next best thing, I pulled the HEAD! And the Gasket shows “no� sign of leaks, that is weird. But, if you flip the head over and look at the bottom… cyl 1 and 2 look normal black-ish with a little carbon build up on the valves and end of plug… cyl 3 did not have as much carbon, but was wet with oil… Cyl 4 was CLEAN AS A WHISTLE! Look like you cleaned it, like it was getting water maybe? Remember Cyl 1 and 2 were firing and hitting good, Cyl 3 was not firing, Cyl 4 was only barley hitting.

O’yea… The Dist. And plugs/wires were timed right… I will have to look at the Rotor!

So, I guess I will put the head in the shop this week… While it’s down I’ll go ahead and do a In-frame Ring job on the pistons, after I hone it (the Cyl Walls look good). I’ll hope it helps the problem of firing, where should I go with this Cam Gear timing mark crap?


SWCSUK  --  Looking for the LIGHT!

Install Cam as I instructed above, slip on the timing belt and tighten.

Install Distributor, rotor should point towards the valve cover bolt on
the right side rear (aprox).

Time the distributor #1 pointing at the bolt as above, and follow clockwise
attaching the spark plug wires 1,3,4,2

OK, now for static timing instructions, so you can time as instructed above,
this works very well for all points type distributors.

With all the coil wires connected, remove the center lead from the distributor,
remove the cap from the distributor, loosten the distributor clamp so you can
turn the distributor by hand. Put the coil lead in a position close to a grounded
metal surface like the body. Switch on the ignition and rotate the distributor body
until you see/ and or hear a spark, stop, check the rotor direction, should be close
to the position listed above, if not, try again.

Once this is set, your engine will start first try, provided you have all other things
set in to the right positions

Good Luck,
Wild

Hey there....

 Ã‚    Did you check the position of the valves before re-timing it? Refer to "Wild's" post, it would not be the first time the book was wrong!
 Ã‚    Assuming the timing was correct and going by the vacuum guage readings (which,while low were not really that bad) I think you're going to find a problem with the head, it still sounds like coolant in cylinders 3-4 to me.
 Ã‚   You might want to wait for a verdict on the head before re-ringing, but while you are waiting check the block for hairline cracks between cylinders from coolant passages and oil galleries.

Going back to what you said originally and in your later posts...
- Compression 180-185, indicates good rings etc.
- Everything in ignition checked good
- Assuming timing was correct
- Vacuum guage readings, a little low but not real bad.
- Head gasket looked good
- Combustion chamber 3 looks wet and coloring lighter than 1-2
- Combustion chamber 4 really clean (let me guess bare aluminum)

Leads back to something contaminating cylinders 3-4 and causing them not to fire properly.

It's too bad you were not able to do the coolant system pressure test as this would have confirmed things before tear down.

But reviewing your steps it really narrows the problem areas....
- Coolant leak to cylinders is the top of the list
- Siezed oil rings, possible but not likely as it should have made the combustion chambers    
 Ã‚ really dark.

Getting the head checked is a really good plan....I'd suggest having the shop pressure test it and making sure it is square.

But really check over the block....I can only venture an educated guess because I can't see anything, but Coolant leak is at the top of the guess list and if it ain't the head there is a chance it is the block....so check it over really, really carefully, and make sure the deck is square.
 Ã‚    It would be a shame to re-ring it then find that the problem is  a crack or something with the block.

This could be why it was an inexpensive Zuk...maybe he had the same problem and doing the head didn't fix it and he gave up!

Keep sluggin....step by step and you will find it. Glad to see you got a manual, even with the odd error they are invaluable.

Zag