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Good possibility for a V6 swap for trackicks.

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Offline zooky

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Re: Good possibility for a V6 swap for trackicks.
« Reply #30 on: December 27, 2003, 01:05:30 AM »
OK, heres the scoop. I just received word from my Isuzu guy that the tracker tailhousing/T-case adapter will fit on the 4L30, there is one bolt hole slightly off but thats a minor issue, now we just need to dertermine if the spline count is the same between the 4L30 and the Tracker T-case. But this info means nothing to you guys. What might mean something is that the 60*GM V6 bellhousing is being sent to me to try it on. He posted a pic of the bellhousing bolt pattern (on Pirate) and it appears to match, but you know how that goes, they could have moved one hole 1/4" and this wouldnt work. I will post results when I try it out...
« Last Edit: December 27, 2003, 01:08:21 AM by zooky »

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Offline Z3bra

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Re: Good possibility for a V6 swap for trackicks.
« Reply #31 on: December 27, 2003, 02:40:21 AM »
One bolt hole off is good news.  Just put some nice Socket head alloy steel ones in the others and/or drill/tap/helicoil a new spot if needed.

I seriously doubt the bolt pattern for the bellhousing itself will be a problem.  

For what it's worth in my looking for seals for my steering gearbox yesterday I called a few tranny shops since they might know a local source for oddball sized seals.  (no luck in that venture so far however).  Anyway the guy said the 4L30's are more failure prone than the 3L30's which he said are damn near bulletproof.  I doubt it's that much of an issue though personally and it's probably because of the electronic control more than anything else.

Not trying to fork this whole thread, (Yes, fork, not a substitute for another 4 letter word that starts with F) but Heck I'm open to any or all of the subjects we've talked about here.  If I can swap in the V6 and 4L30, that's cool, more power, better low gears, and overdrive yet still handy for commuting.  

If ultimately only the 60º V6 with the Isuzu Bellhousing on the 3 speed, I can live with that too.  After doing a little reasearch the 60º V6 should take higher revs ok with a few caveats.  

Namely you want the 87 or newer version as the crank is internally balanced and uses a neutrally ballanced flywheel/driveplate. It also has a bunch of the smaller design changes such as newer design rear main seals etc implemented that went through about 4 changes in the first 4 or 5 years the engine was out there.  

You also would want the aluminum heads with the improved combustion chamber and splayed valve configuration.  

Most of the sites I've looked at show a 7000 RPM rev limit for the engine and in the 2.8 or even the 3.1 it's an "oversquare" engine meaning the bore is bigger than the stroke which generally means it'll be happy to rev vs an "undersquare" engine which is torque happy but not as high revving.  Heck the 1.6 is about at the limit of undersquare as it is with it's rod ratio.  

The 6500 RPM limit is basically maxing out the peak piston speed for any engine design as it comes from the factory.  The 60º V6 would actually rev better than the 1.6 just based on that fact alone.  

The only real complaint I have with it is the fact that it's a pushrod engine instead of overhead cam, but I'd have to say that it would be an acceptable compromise given the torque and horsepower potential dollar for dollar with the 60º V6 compared to the 1.6 8v or 16v even with a turbo, Then again I  guess you could turbo or even twin turbo the V6 for some real fun and excitement.  With the V6 you could get some fairly smallish turbos that spool up fast for some good low RPM torque.

A couple other interesting tidbits with the 60º V6 is that you can get a crate longblock from GM goodwrench performance that is a 3.4 liter version for about 1800 bucks for the complete engine.  Probably less if you can get stuff at wholesale or dealer cost.  Only real downside to this engine is that it's got the iron heads but a trip to the junkyard to pull the heads off a FWD car using the 60º V6 would make that an easy thing to fix.  Less weight plus aluminum heads tend to be much more forgiving with high compression and ping than cast iron.  

If you sent the junkyard aluminum "gen II" heads out for a good rework comparable to the ones that come with the crate engine and you'd probably save 30-40 lbs or so in addition to the other benefits of aluminum heads.

As it is the Iron block for the 60º V6 weighs about 100 lbs.  If you've got $3500 or so burning a hole in your pocket GM does make and sell an aluminum "bowtie" 60º V6 that only weighs about 60 lbs by itself.  Maybe if I win the Powerball jackpot tonight I could realistically consider that.  (in addition to the stable of other vehicles I'd be buying, I'd have to hang on to the project cars because building em is half the fun and doing it without budget constraints could be really fun)  Plus then I could afford to live in BFE comfortably with some required amenities like a T1 or better data connection and be able to avoid emissions testing altogether.

**continued next post **

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Offline Z3bra

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Re: Good possibility for a V6 swap for trackicks.
« Reply #32 on: December 27, 2003, 02:40:41 AM »
** continued from last post **
** Note to Eric Bewley, can you up the allowed post size since I'm a longwinded SOB? **


Anyway like I said before I'm guessing the complete 60º V6 engine would probably be about 100-150 lbs more than the 1.6 is.  I don't think that's a big problem and worst case, getting custom coils wound is always an option.  

Of course there's still the option of the 4L30E bolted to the 1.6 with the tracker/kick bellhousing and t-case provided you can find a way to trick the transmission into working without a proper brainbox assuming that the ECU for it isn't a standalone.

All 3 options have their benefits.  

The V6 and 4L30E with the Isuzu electronics for an easier swap that's not too bad in any capacity and should be able to pass emissions as long as the engine is out of something as new or newer than what it's going into.

The V6 on the existing 3L30 if that pans out,  should be a fairly easy swap.  The fuel supply method could be carb'd or efi depending on what your emissions test situation calls for and your comfort level of working with an aftermarket ECU setup.  

The 1.6 with the 4L30E might be pretty easy if the limp mode shift points are acceptable provided there's no standalone ECU for it.  You probably would want to at least see about forcing the torque converter to lock on the highway so you don't get nasty mileage if you go that route.  That would be easy though since it's just a solenoid you could wire up to a switch and manually lock/unlock it.  Whether or not that would become a big pain is up for grabs, I'm guessing it might though if traffic speeds up and slows down a regularly.  It's probably good for a road trip though where the speed is fairly constant.  

You would benefit from the overdrive and the better 1st and 2nd gear ratios.  The only other installation issue is that you could end up needing to play with your driveshafts since the 4L30 transmission is about an inch longer than the 3L30 is. (That's what the GM powertrain website says anyway)   This would also be necessary if you dropped the whole Isuzu drivetrain in the tracker/kick although you might be able to get away with mounting the V6 slightly forward compared to the 4 cyl.  The length difference might even be small enough to get away with some spacers and such depending on your suspension's lift situation rather than actually shortening or lengthening the shafts.

Other than all of the above possibilities requiring money to perform them, there's not much of a downside to any of them. Sure they're not a true "bolt in" modification like the 4 door brake calipers, but they don't look horrible as far as engine swaps go either.

The real key piece in this is the bellhousing so if that doesn't work out this is really going to be a bummer.

Actually, if the fluid passages on the back of the bell housing from a 4L30 end up being the only problem but they're close to the same as the ones on the 3L30, there's probably the option of welding up/machining out the differences. Wouldn't really cost much to get that done I wouldn't think.  Alternately if they're quite a bit different there might be the option of completely machining the old ones off, welding a slab of aluminum that's the correct size and thickness as what you machined off, and then machining the needed passages back into the welded on piece.  That would of course cost more but since it pretty much would just be garden variety 2 axis milling in aluminum it wouldn't be too horribly bad.  If you could get a CAD drawing of the required one to them and the converted tool paths from something like MasterCAM or Surfcam to the machine shop it would drop that price a lot too since their time spent in setup would be minimal that way.  

There also might be the option of welding the tracker/kick bellhousing front half to the 4L30 bellhousing back half or the 3L30 back half to a 60º V6 front half to make this work too if they're fairly close dimensionally and the differences in the fluid passages end up being too significant to work out otherwise.

Honestly, given the fact that it looks like the bolt patterns will match up, I'm feeling better about the fluid passages working ok without modifications too.  Guess we'll find out.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2003, 02:41:35 AM by Z3bra »

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Offline zooky

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Re: Good possibility for a V6 swap for trackicks.
« Reply #33 on: December 27, 2003, 03:06:22 AM »
I requested a photo of the oil passages. If it dosent match, we may be able to use the 4L30 pump to match the bellhousing. We can cross that bridge if we get to it ;D. The RPM thing may or may not be an issue. It will be for the guy who has no lift but if you have a lift and oversize tires it may save you from having to regear to get the high-range gearing back. It would work out good for a samurai guy with something like a Kicker2 where there is no high-range reduction and the stock 3.73 sami gears or 4.10 toyota gears.

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Offline Z3bra

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Re: Good possibility for a V6 swap for trackicks.
« Reply #34 on: December 27, 2003, 04:30:04 AM »
Yeah as it is with just the 31's on the 4.62's I run about 4000 RPM with 65 showing on the speedo which is about 73.5 actual speed.  

That's usually just keeping up with traffic here on the freeway, and it does get a bit breathless at about that point.

The upside is that if I really hit the gas and it downshifts to 2nd I'm only showing 5500-6000 rpm if I'm going 55-60 going by the speedo.  All things being equal with the 3 speed if you're running 4000 RPM on the freeway in 3rd at 70 or so, you're still going to be running 4000 RPM whether it's the V6 or the 4 cyl.

Was going to post this link earlier but I forgot to, but these guys seem to have a good selection of 60º V6 stuff.  Stuff to consider anyway, if they make it others probably do as well.

http://www.engine-parts.com/GMV6/gm28stroker.html

Gives some HP estimates for different combinations and they have a faq about the engine family too.

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Offline wildgoody

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Re: Good possibility for a V6 swap for trackicks.
« Reply #35 on: December 28, 2003, 09:37:33 AM »
I found this in a search for the 4L30 Trans.
Automatic Transmission Manual for Isuzu/Toyota 4L30-E (Trooper/Rodeo BMW)
HUH  Toyota !! I knew GM had a working relationship with
Toyota (look at the Chevy Spectrum, it's Toyota)  but these trany's
might show up in more vehicles than first thought.

If they use it in Toyota, a 22R engine might be a bolt in for an
Auto trans in a Kick.
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Offline wildgoody

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Re: Good possibility for a V6 swap for trackicks.
« Reply #36 on: December 28, 2003, 09:47:55 AM »
More application information for the 4L30-E

1st Generation P'up (1988 - 1995) ?
2nd Generation P'up (1996 - current)

1st Generation Rodeo (1990 - 1997)
2nd Generation Rodeo (1998 - current)

1st Generation Trooper (1984 - 1991) ?
2nd Generation Trooper (1992 - 1998)
3rd Generation Trooper (1999 - current)
« Last Edit: December 28, 2003, 09:54:24 AM by wildgoody »
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Offline TN_Tracker

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Re: Good possibility for a V6 swap for trackicks.
« Reply #37 on: December 28, 2003, 09:59:57 AM »
Would the engine, tranny and t-case from an early Blazer fit? They're cheap as dirt around here because most of them are rusting into oblivion. Get a wiring harness from Painless Wiring, adapt the driveshafts and go.

I'm a Proud Member of Team BlueRibbon Coalition & Tread Lightly, are you?

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Offline wildgoody

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Re: Good possibility for a V6 swap for trackicks.
« Reply #38 on: December 28, 2003, 10:04:52 AM »
Transmission Model
Available Rear Wheel Drive: Gear Ratios
             
THM 180C (3L30)
                         
                         2.400 First
                         1.479  Second
                         1.000 Third
                           ----- Fourth
                         2.000 Reverse
             
4L30-E
                         2.400 First
                         1.479  Second
                          1.000 Third
                         0.723 Fourth
                         2.000 Reverse
             
4L30-E Optional
                         2.860 First
                         1.620  Second
                         1.000 Third
                         0.723 Fourth
                         2.000 Reverse
Real Trucks Are Built, Not Bought,
And Chrome Don't Get Ya Home.  

An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject.

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Offline 1bigtracker

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Re: Good possibility for a V6 swap for trackicks.
« Reply #39 on: December 28, 2003, 01:50:18 PM »
this is kinda out of what you guys are talking about and you can beat me with sticks if you don't like it but i have a link where this guy put a Mazda RX-7 engine a sammy.  ask if you want the link.  lata stu
   

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Offline wildgoody

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Re: Good possibility for a V6 swap for trackicks.
« Reply #40 on: December 28, 2003, 02:07:18 PM »
You mean Wayne AKA Rotozuke ??
Ya He wants me to come down to the
shop to look at my turbo setup.
He's got a Mitsu 2.0 Turbo motor from
an Eclipse in it now.
Real Trucks Are Built, Not Bought,
And Chrome Don't Get Ya Home.  

An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject.

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Offline 1bigtracker

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Re: Good possibility for a V6 swap for trackicks.
« Reply #41 on: December 28, 2003, 02:25:06 PM »
wow thats pretty sweet.  i was thinking of a N/A 4G63 for my tracker but i never even started to look at it.  lata stu
   

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Offline TN_Tracker

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Re: Good possibility for a V6 swap for trackicks.
« Reply #42 on: December 29, 2003, 08:11:40 AM »
Here's a good link with info about all GM 60 Degree Engines.
http://members.shaw.ca/betterthanyoutoo/60degreetree.htm

TN_T

I'm a Proud Member of Team BlueRibbon Coalition & Tread Lightly, are you?

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Offline zooky

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Re: Good possibility for a V6 swap for trackicks.
« Reply #43 on: December 30, 2003, 06:54:54 AM »
I got that bellhousing today and it bolts right on!  WooHoo! I think the oil passages on the back are going to be an issue though, they dont match. I am comparing them to a TH180 from a Chevette I have in pieces (my Tracker transmission is currently installed) so there is still hope that it may match the tracker transmission, but I dont think so. Now I need to get ahold of another tracker bellhousing to compare...

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Offline wildgoody

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Re: Good possibility for a V6 swap for trackicks.
« Reply #44 on: December 30, 2003, 07:32:35 AM »
there is a Track/Kick with an auto in it,
I can see what they want for it and donate
it to the cause. Some BONEHEAD ripped the
valve body out of it, I wanted it for a spare
as I got 265,000 on my stocker, and it
might go sometime, so I wanna be prepaired.
Real Trucks Are Built, Not Bought,
And Chrome Don't Get Ya Home.  

An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject.