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Pulling a 16V from a Tracker

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Offline bentparts

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Re: Pulling a 16V from a Tracker
« Reply #60 on: October 21, 2012, 04:27:40 AM »
We need a " sarcastic " emoticon. I was just being a smart ass, age and treachery can only be attained by surviving youth  :laugh:
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Offline ecoast

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Re: Pulling a 16V from a Tracker
« Reply #61 on: October 21, 2012, 04:33:47 AM »
Quote from: bentparts on October 20, 2012, 05:37:50 PM
In the immortal words of Dr. Frankenstein.......................................   " It's Alive !!!! "

very good!

how's it sound/run?

Drive it yet?



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Offline bentparts

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Re: Pulling a 16V from a Tracker
« Reply #62 on: October 21, 2012, 04:53:50 AM »
Quote from: bentparts on October 20, 2012, 05:37:50 PM
In the immortal words of Dr. Frankenstein.......................................   " It's Alive !!!! "

  Took it for it's first test drive and engine is tight, quiet and not puking any fluids anywhere so that is a good thing. Oil pressure seems a bit high but everything needs time to break in. Best of all the engine doesn't make any clicking, tapping or otherwise non happy sounds, except for the injectors being more noticeable now ( fuel pressure is bumped up to about 50lbs with the bigger injectors. ) For the first time since I've had this thing it's quiet. Got a couple of small issues to deal with:
 
1. It's a bit sluggish off the bottom. I set the timing at 4degrees btc ( retarded a bit for the turbo ) but I think I can advance it more because the first test on full boost ( which was a bout 5 minutes into the first test ride   :laugh: ) it jumps right up to 8 lb and had no ping or detonation whatsoever. From idle to about 3K it's pretty slow to build power.  I'm wondering if I have the disty 1 tooth off,  it does start almost as soon as the key is turned.

2. I must have jacked up my kick down ( TV ) cable when my trans almost fell out. I figured out why the cable is too long to fit in it's mount correctly, it's not retracted all the way back into the trans. I don't remember messing with it when I did the shift seal, but I's possible I did F something up. Got to take another look at everything.

Other than those two issues, and a power steering unit that seems slow to come back to full assist after I bled it, it seems quite happy and so am I. Any ideas on the sluggish bottom end behavior or TV cable issues ?
« Last Edit: October 21, 2012, 04:56:43 AM by bentparts »
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Offline talonxracer

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Re: Pulling a 16V from a Tracker
« Reply #63 on: October 21, 2012, 06:46:58 AM »
A sluggish bottom end is inherent to most boosted engines, it just isnt building enough boost down low, I would suggest removing as much resistance within the intake and exhaust as possible. With the AWD Talons we would also crush the BOV solenoid slightly in order to build boost lower.


What turbo did you utilize?
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Offline zuki1018

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Re: Pulling a 16V from a Tracker
« Reply #64 on: October 21, 2012, 07:06:13 AM »
Im sure that sluggish up until 3k is due to that initial 4deg timing. I am set at 10deg initial

My timing map is by no means perfect in my megasquirt but I pull timing about 1deg per psi over 100kpa.  I have not been able to find a stock tracker timing map to go off of so my timing is pretty linear across the RPM range.

I added a screenshot of the log viewer.  The tables on the right are my active fuel (top) and spark (bottom) settings.  The small blue line surrounded by light yellow boxes is where im CURRENTLY at while driving in reference to the center line in the large graph. In other words: boost at 162kpa (almost 9psi) throttle position 92%, A/F of 14.86, RPM 3900 etc etc. Also for what its worth, I believe megasquirt is available in a plug and play version if you swapped over the complete harness.

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Offline zuki1018

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Re: Pulling a 16V from a Tracker
« Reply #65 on: October 21, 2012, 07:16:25 AM »
Quote from: talonxracer on October 21, 2012, 06:46:58 AM
A sluggish bottom end is inherent to most boosted engines, it just isnt building enough boost down low, I would suggest removing as much resistance within the intake and exhaust as possible. With the AWD Talons we would also crush the BOV solenoid slightly in order to build boost lower.


What turbo did you utilize?

Another work around is If you have an electronic boost controller, you can have the wastegate 100% open and slowly close as you gain rpms and reach your target boost. More of a super charged characteristic.  Another factor is it just "feels" sluggish in comparison. Idle to somewhere around 3000rpm is going to feel like a stock 16v tracker until the turbo spools and locks you into the seat!
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Offline zuki1018

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Re: Pulling a 16V from a Tracker
« Reply #66 on: October 21, 2012, 07:38:15 AM »
...just some random info since i can see just about everything this engine/turbo is doing. When i stomp the throttle rpms climb... once i get to 100kpa (which is zero boost/vacuum) here are some results:

In first gear:
MAP: 99    RPM: 3870
I reached a peak boost of 151kpa/7.21psi at 5280RPM  (timing near 28deg and moving towards 25)

Second gear:
MAP 100   RPM: 3491
Peak boost 154kpa/7.63psi  at 4100RPM (timing near 28deg and moving towards 25)

..keep in mind the turbo is building up at a lower RPM but above is where it actually starts applying pressure.

I have a few other areas where boost starting coming in at 2500rpms.  I could have been going up a hill or etc.  But basically looking at averages my setup with a T25 from a Saab (.46/.54 i think it was) takes about 1000rpms to be at my max boost.
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Offline talonxracer

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Re: Pulling a 16V from a Tracker
« Reply #67 on: October 21, 2012, 07:43:50 AM »
Intercooled?


 
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Offline ecoast

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Re: Pulling a 16V from a Tracker
« Reply #68 on: October 21, 2012, 08:10:45 AM »
as said; bump the timing a bit.

you don't need power steering; you an TOUGH old guy!   ;D


congrats on the rebuild working out!

ps- stay off the boost a while, eh? ;)
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Offline zuki1018

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Re: Pulling a 16V from a Tracker
« Reply #69 on: October 21, 2012, 08:27:05 AM »
Quote from: ecoast on October 21, 2012, 08:10:45 AM
as said; bump the timing a bit.

you don't need power steering; you an TOUGH old guy!   ;D


congrats on the rebuild working out!

ps- stay off the boost a while, eh? ;)

You probably already know but again, I would stay safe on the initial timing until you have a way to control timing under boost like and msd box or MS.  What u pull from initial timing will give you a safe zone as u increase boost but will rob you everywhere else... which IMO is not worth the trade off.  A hole in the piston or melted valve sure ain't worth going through all what u just did again!!!
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Offline bentparts

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Re: Pulling a 16V from a Tracker
« Reply #70 on: October 21, 2012, 02:19:02 PM »
Quote from: talonxracer on October 21, 2012, 06:46:58 AM
A sluggish bottom end is inherent to most boosted engines, it just isnt building enough boost down low, I would suggest removing as much resistance within the intake and exhaust as possible. With the AWD Talons we would also crush the BOV solenoid slightly in order to build boost lower.


What turbo did you utilize?

It wasn't nearly this sluggish before the engine swap WITH the same turbo setup installed, and there are no restrictions in the system, my intake and exhaust in and out of the turbo are as short as physically possible, and when it does get on boost it runs great. Pretty sure it's a timing issue, either cam or dist. Either way I'll get it sorted. All I need is time  ::)
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Offline bentparts

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Re: Pulling a 16V from a Tracker
« Reply #71 on: October 21, 2012, 02:33:40 PM »
Quote from: talonxracer on October 21, 2012, 07:43:50 AM
Intercooled?


 
air to liquid, same setup I've been running for the last 5 years. Recently ( 1 year ) added h20/alc injection at 3psi + boost for extra cooling/octane boost. Works great too.
Zuki1018, I followed your build up and mega squirt threads, would probably go the new controller route but mine seems to work just fine up to 7/8 lbs and most of the time I rarely exceed 5/6. My last engine was already experiencing piston slap and leaky valve guide seals when I got the truck with 63k on it, turbo'ed it at about 69k, ran it that way until the swap at 120k with the thing still actually running great.  If it wasn't for the oil puking oil out the rear main, and valve guide seals  beyond just an annoyance it'd still be in there. The turbo didn't seem to hurt anything. I'm gonna try advancing the timing by 2 degree increments until I begin to experience any ping then back off.

John, I NEED power steering. The only thing that's tough about me is my attitude, for others to take  :laugh:
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Offline bentparts

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Re: Pulling a 16V from a Tracker
« Reply #72 on: October 21, 2012, 06:08:33 PM »
OK, one down two to go. Checked the timing and it was at 0! Must have slipped when I tightened down the disty bolt. Put it at 6 runs great! Now on to the last two issues: Still no power steering assist, and I've " bled " it three times. Must not be doing it right,  and that friggin TV cable. But compared to what I've done in the last week it seems like cake.  :laugh:
I did drop the trans pan ( easy and clean with the new drain ) and took a look at where the TV cable comes into the trans, didn't look like anything was amiss, but hell, I'm no trans mechanic. I could be looking at something there and it could be all f"d up for all I know. The cable attachment point outside the trans is fine too. I removed the holding tab and everything seems fine there too. Still have about an inch of excess inner cable at the mounting point on the throttle housing. I kinda need some help with this one.
The Power steering thing is beginning to concern me. I actually like the way it drives on the highway without it, It's easier to keep it straight  :laugh: BUT tight turns at slow speeds , especially the way I drive in the woods, usually one handed, it feels like turning a truck! God help me I am getting frail  :laugh:

I do remember something that may be contributing too the TV cable thing: when changing the shifter shaft seal, I still had the truck in neutral, tcase also in neutral so I could move the thing around a bit. I did manage to " shift " the trans while tightening the locknut on the shaft, but I just shifted it back and thought nothing of it. Now I really wondering.  Any takers?
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Offline bentparts

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Re: Pulling a 16V from a Tracker
« Reply #73 on: October 21, 2012, 06:12:20 PM »
Quote from: ecoast on October 21, 2012, 08:10:45 AM
as said; bump the timing a bit.

you don't need power steering; you an TOUGH old guy!   ;D Yeah, like bad meat or old shoe leather  :laugh:


congrats on the rebuild working out!  Thanks Bud!

ps- stay off the boost a while, eh? ;) Kinda hard to, it WANTS to make boost! I am trying to break it in somewhat, but I usually put a few easy miles on my engines, dump the break in oil, and then drive it like I'm going to from then on. Seems to have worked on my bike race engines and my old Harley just fine. We'll see 'eh?  ;)
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Offline zuki1018

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Re: Pulling a 16V from a Tracker
« Reply #74 on: October 22, 2012, 04:19:40 AM »
Quote
Zuki1018, I followed your build up and mega squirt threads, would probably go the new controller route but mine seems to work just fine up to 7/8 lbs and most of the time I rarely exceed 5/6. My last engine was already experiencing piston slap and leaky valve guide seals when I got the truck with 63k on it, turbo'ed it at about 69k, ran it that way until the swap at 120k with the thing still actually running great. 

..and I yours! You cant argue with what worked.  Did you ever move over to a wideband at least?

Mine spits some smoke also.  Blame it on my 1st ever engine rebuilt/break-in I suppose.  Its tolerable for now though.
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