Hello Suzuki guys,

I have been posting information on Toyota Forums about a semi fluid grease used in production for the Solid axle, depending on application this grease can be in the #0 or #1 Grade,

Since the Toyota FSM indicates to use a #2 grease in the Wheel bearings and knuckles and the thinner production lube is Identified as axle seal failure,

Now I know that these little Suzuki,s can have a much the same semi fluid goop in the hub, knuckle,

Sometimes this grease is also Identified as grease that has gone bad, or gotten to much water in it, aside from the axle seal failure theory that seems to be the common misdiagnosis of this Factory lube,

Also the Geo Trackers, and Isuzu rigs with the IFS have a fluid grease in the factory hub what I describe as "Maple Syrup" about as thick, and sticky, and resembles the color some what,
Now I have no Idea what this stuff is, but for the Solid axle, the black nasty goo, I researched it to be a sodium based grease,

Just wondering What you guys know of this stuff, cant get anywhere with the Toyota crowd, they firmly believe this to be axle seal failure for the most part,
After Market outfits make a upgraded seal to fix a problem that does not even exist, I wind up getting banned, cause all sorts of trouble, disrupt there happy little forums and considered a big mean nasty Troll,

But These little Trackers, Suzuki, Isuzu, rigs have semi fluid or oil in the wheel hubs from production as well, Just wondering where you guys at, Identify it as a Form of Grease, or failure

Thanks Frank

Okay I just read a article about this Samurai Knuckle Rebuild, called DIY Steering Knuckle Rebuild,

the gal writing the article described the lube as

8." Now you can clean the mayonnaise (well, that's what it is!! oil and water) out of the star shaped thingy better known as the free wheeling hub body. "

Mayonnaise would be the equivalent of #1 grade grease,

The way I usually tell is by pulling the hub off, if your knuckle is full of gunk then it is a inner seal failure.  Just slide the axle out and pop a new one in.  You can also tell by looking at the back side of the knuckle, if there is gear oil dripping down from there it means that your inner seal has gone out.  What happens is your gear oil gets into the hub and just makes a mess of things.

Your mess is in the outer hub though, it looks like someone put grease in the hub itself?  Or put something strange in the bearing and it is leaking out...

I just use standard heavy duty wheel bearing grease when I pack the front bearings.  Same as you would use on a 1-ton or a trailer.

The way I usually tell is by pulling the hub off, if your knuckle is full of gunk then it is a inner seal failure.  Just slide the axle out and pop a new one in.  You can also tell by looking at the back side of the knuckle, if there is gear oil dripping down from there it means that your inner seal has gone out.  What happens is your gear oil gets into the hub and just makes a mess of things.

Your mess is in the outer hub though, it looks like someone put grease in the hub itself?  Or put something strange in the bearing and it is leaking out...

I just use standard heavy duty wheel bearing grease when I pack the front bearings.  Same as you would use on a 1-ton or a trailer.

Thanks for the reply Drone 637, now from what I have found the gunk in the wheel hub can be from production, and yes filling the wheel bearing hub with goop is the factory method,
Now axle seals can and do fail, but often times the leakage can be caused by introducing a incompatible grease in the wheel hub, it mixes and causes oil separation in the grease itself,
So Oil |removethispart|@ the wiper seal, lower trunnion cap can be as a result of packing the wheel bearings with a lithium based grease,

Not seal failure,

It is Normal to find a semi fluid lube in these hubs, knuckles, it is put in there from production, as to Why ? #2 lithium grease is listed |removethispart|@ least in the Toyota manuals, dont know about Suzuki ?

The semi-fluid liquid in the bottom of the knuckle is usually caused by gear oil getting into the knuckle through a bad seal.  The only other 'grease type material' that should make it into the knuckle would be from your CV joint.  Since the wheel bearing sits on the spindle and is outside the knuckle it should be nearly impossible for grease from your wheel bearing to get in there.

But since you know better feel free to ignore me.

Stock Suzuki does not place any grease inside of their hubs.  There are no instructions on adding grease to the automatic or manual hub unit during a rebuild, they are a dry unit from the factory.  If you find your hubs are sticking it is usually recommend to put a light coating of grease or transmission fluid.  I went ahead and looked it up, they officially call for some Suzuki Super Grease A (99000-25010).

But since you know better feel free to ignore me.

As for the wheel bearing grease, the Suzuki FSM for Trackers calls for GM P/N 1051344 or equivalent.  For the SJ-413 and SJ-410 it just calls for Wheel Bearing Grease.

But you probably know better then me on that as well.  So feel free to ignore me.

The semi-fluid liquid in the bottom of the knuckle is usually caused by gear oil getting into the knuckle through a bad seal.  The only other 'grease type material' that should make it into the knuckle would be from your CV joint.  Since the wheel bearing sits on the spindle and is outside the knuckle it should be nearly impossible for grease from your wheel bearing to get in there.

But since you know better feel free to ignore me.

Stock Suzuki does not place any grease inside of their hubs.  There are no instructions on adding grease to the automatic or manual hub unit during a rebuild, they are a dry unit from the factory.  If you find your hubs are sticking it is usually recommend to put a light coating of grease or transmission fluid.  I went ahead and looked it up, they officially call for some Suzuki Super Grease A (99000-25010).

But since you know better feel free to ignore me.

As for the wheel bearing grease, the Suzuki FSM for Trackers calls for GM P/N 1051344 or equivalent.  For the SJ-413 and SJ-410 it just calls for Wheel Bearing Grease.

But you probably know better then me on that as well.  So feel free to ignore me.

"I went ahead and looked it up, they officially call for some Suzuki Super Grease A (99000-25010)."

If its a semi fluid grease than it is the same as production, if not then thats what I wish to find out, Is it the same as what is originally put in there,
There is no doubt about this, a fluid lubricant in these wheel hubs, If you feel you know better than you can ignore me, but ease up on that Drone,
What I have found, the recommendation from the FSM for these import rigs drastically differs from what is in there, It is obvious,
So will look up this Suzuki Super grease A 99000 25010, if its a #2 grade then its BS just like the Toyota FSM,

Okay I searched for a few minutes to find the grade rating of the Super Suzuki grease, nothing official but from the sounds of this

Old 5th December 2003, 10:38 PM
Bayouboy's Avatar    

"Last time I was at my dealers I asked the service guys if they had any on hand so I could check it out. It's a low viscosity (reminded me of mechanics hand cleaner) paste with a lithium base."
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From a Motorcycle forum, so from the sounds of that #1 grade, ,

Now as far as these manual and auto hubs being "Dry" Doubtful,

Now the BS radar is going off on this Super Suzuki Grease, and the GM # ?

So anyone know of the Grade of the Super Suzuki grease

Yep BS Total BS

That GM # P/N 1051344, not a fluid grease #2 grade, not whats in them Tracker Rigs from production,

VALVOLINE MULTI-PURPOSE GREASE for GM, Chrysler, European & Japanese Vehicles(formerly Valvoline Premium Grease) - is a premium quality, heavy-duty, wheel bearing and multi-purpose grease. It is a NLGI # 2 grade lithium complex EP grease with exceptional resistance to high temperatures and heavy loads. It is engineered for maximum performance and protection in the most demanding service for wheel bearings, suspension systems, universal joints, steering linkages and chassis. Valvoline Multi-Purpose GM Grease is recommended as a disc brake wheel bearing grease for most vehicles (i.e., GM, Chrysler, Japanese and European) and meets requirement of GM part number 1051344 and NLGI GC-LB quality requirements.. Valvoline Multi-Purpose GM Grease is dyed red for easier identification for installation and maintenance evaluation.


Total BS Glorified Red Farmer Bob grease, #2 grade,

Not what is in these Import vehicles from production, Now you can either get all pissy and bent or you can ponder with me on as to Why this is ?

I have 3 Theories, What do you think, ?

Now there are some outfits that say they meet the spec requirements of this GM 1051344 grease, but as the case in other GM specs, you research that # in hopes to find what these specs are  and its a dead end,

Nothing ?

Usually I follow the FSM as closely as possible, but when it comes to wheel bearing grease in these things I only use a high quality WATER PROOF grease, don't care what the freakin manual says. My wheel bearings and hubs seem to love it. As far as the locking hubs ( manual on mine ) same thing, only a LIGHT coating just to keep them moving smoothly.
When I used to work in the motorcycle biz, the Japanese bikes all came with what looked and smelled like Fish Oil in the front forks. First thing we did is drain them and replace with real fork oil. Didn't seem to hurt them, to the contrary, they rode and handled much better.

BTW, are you a trans mechanic or the other kind of " tranny?" Not that there's anything wrong with that. 

Usually I follow the FSM as closely as possible, but when it comes to wheel bearing grease in these things I only use a high quality WATER PROOF grease, don't care what the freakin manual says. My wheel bearings and hubs seem to love it. As far as the locking hubs ( manual on mine ) same thing, only a LIGHT coating just to keep them moving smoothly.
When I used to work in the motorcycle biz, the Japanese bikes all came with what looked and smelled like Fish Oil in the front forks. First thing we did is drain them and replace with real fork oil. Didn't seem to hurt them, to the contrary, they rode and handled much better.

BTW, are you a trans mechanic or the other kind of " tranny?" Not that there's anything wrong with that. 

Yep the mechanic kind of tranny because the other is just sick and wrong, anyway, its interesting about the fish fork oil, crazy but you know you may be right the Japanese still use sperm whale oil or still hunt them and harvest them, and use them in lubricants,  anyooo,

The problem is that if you just introduce a lithium in the wheel hub, in the enclosed axle the semi fluid will migrate from the knuckle and mix with it, causing oil separation, which leaks, and leads one to think its axle seal failure when its just using the wrong stupid grease because of a Bogus recommendation in the manual,
Now the "mystery grease fluid" may have been lousy for Motorclycle forks but in a wheel hub, Stuff lasts indefinitly, basically limited to the life span of the seal , 30 plus years,


Now I bring you guys this info because its way over the heads of the Toyota boys, and in fact they have multiple "Propagandists" on Mud Yota tech and pirate, that propagate this mis information, or I should say Dis information, Totally nuts but can point it out, find it easily,

Typically its those in the parts bisness, have a vested interest in selling over haul kits every few years, not |removethispart|@ all interested in a lubed for life grease,
Thats theory #3

Heres a link to my new Website, going thru a old Ford Rig with the Straight axle, using this goop,

http://www.backwoodsgoopinfo.com/goopBB/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12

The problem is that if you just introduce a lithium in the wheel hub, in the enclosed axle the semi fluid will migrate from the knuckle and mix with it, causing oil separation, which leaks, and leads one to think its axle seal failure when its just using the wrong stupid grease because of a Bogus recommendation in the manual,

Ah, well that explains that, you are trying to sell something.  That would explain why you are so adamant that anything other then your knuckle grease is going to work.

Suzuki's do not use an internal u-joint/closed knuckle system inside the kingpin.  So there is no reason to dump a bunch of any type of grease in there.  Most Toyotas use a birfield system as well, which may be why people where arguing with you on other boards.  This is why I said if you have a bunch of oil in the bottom of your knuckle it's your axle seal.  There is no other good way for oil  or grease to get in there of any type.

And from your posted link:

On the wheel bearings simply pump a good bead of the goop on the back side of the bearing and spin it with your finger, this works the grease into the rollers the same as packing

No, it's not.  You want to pack the bearing AND put a good bead of bearing grease on the back side of your bearings.  This is because the bearings will throw the grease in them out to the outside of the wheel.  Without the extra grease behind the bearings they can go dry and die prematurely.  Running even 10 mile without proper lubrication is enough to cause permanent damage to the rollers and scar the bearing race.

The wheel bearing is not the knuckle u-joint.  Use real wheel bearing grease as is called for.  And I have never had wheel bearing grease work it's way out, go through the spindle and into the knuckle.

As for calling me out on manual and auto hubs not being dry from the factory, do me a favor and go to junk yard, pull a couple off and tell me how much oil is in there.  Then come back and tell me I have no idea what I'm talking about.  Be careful if you pull one from a 99 and up Tracker/Vitara though.  They have one piece hubs and are not the best way to compare.

But since you know better then me about all of this feel free to ignore me.

Quote from: Tranny Frank on August 12, 2011, 04:33:41 PM

The problem is that if you just introduce a lithium in the wheel hub, in the enclosed axle the semi fluid will migrate from the knuckle and mix with it, causing oil separation, which leaks, and leads one to think its axle seal failure when its just using the wrong stupid grease because of a Bogus recommendation in the manual,

Ah, well that explains that, you are trying to sell something.  That would explain why you are so adamant that anything other then your knuckle grease is going to work.

Suzuki's do not use an internal u-joint/closed knuckle system inside the kingpin.  So there is no reason to dump a bunch of any type of grease in there.  Most Toyotas use a birfield system as well, which may be why people where arguing with you on other boards.  This is why I said if you have a bunch of oil in the bottom of your knuckle it's your axle seal.  There is no other good way for oil  or grease to get in there of any type.

And from your posted link:

Quote

On the wheel bearings simply pump a good bead of the goop on the back side of the bearing and spin it with your finger, this works the grease into the rollers the same as packing

No, it's not.  You want to pack the bearing AND put a good bead of bearing grease on the back side of your bearings.  This is because the bearings will throw the grease in them out to the outside of the wheel.  Without the extra grease behind the bearings they can go dry and die prematurely.  Running even 10 mile without proper lubrication is enough to cause permanent damage to the rollers and scar the bearing race.

The wheel bearing is not the knuckle u-joint.  Use real wheel bearing grease as is called for.  And I have never had wheel bearing grease work it's way out, go through the spindle and into the knuckle.

As for calling me out on manual and auto hubs not being dry from the factory, do me a favor and go to junk yard, pull a couple off and tell me how much oil is in there.  Then come back and tell me I have no idea what I'm talking about.  Be careful if you pull one from a 99 and up Tracker/Vitara though.  They have one piece hubs and are not the best way to compare.

But since you know better then me about all of this feel free to ignore me.

Wow Drone ease up, Now working the lube into the bearing is just more or less a assembly procedure, the very next post states to fill it up,, so I guess you missed that,

After pre lubing the bearings, installing seal, stick it on the Rig and pump approx 1/2 full in the wheel-bearing cavity,

Different Rig pictured here , didnt have a pic of this step on the old 71, but same difference,

While helpful to have the rig tipped up on its side just a tad but not required,,

Now on the original deal Drone, if your not following along here its what is used |removethispart|@ production, Dont now for sure about your oil, greaseless hubs but maybee,

These Geo, Trackers, Isuzu,s and Susuki rigs one finds fluid lube in the wheel hub, from production,

But your all about wrangling, pissing match, well I aint gonna go there with you, but it brings me to the realization of Why Theory #2 is probrobly  why you dont have this production grease available to you,

To Fill you in Drone on Theory #2 is that your incapable of using it, a "8baller" as long time technical writer Moses Ludel points out,

Now I kinda always considered that to be a reason why so it was sure nice to have a professional come to the same possible worst case senerio,

So Theory #2 Drone is that your just plain incapable of using it, just cause to much trouble,, maybee, but I like to think that qualified mechanics could use this production type grease,

So |removethispart|@ the moment it is no longer for sale, so you can ease up on me about that, only available to qualified grease monkeys that can demonstrate basic common sense ,

So here ya go drone Theory #2, taken from part II of the exit counseling, deprogramming of a Toyota Tech , on Toyota 4 runner forums,

Theory #2
Theory #2 as to why you do not have this type of production lube, is that your incapable of using it properly,

Cause to much trouble, not perform the job properly, This is why I am considering just making it available to qualified personal such as yourself Rixxer,

I think your capable of using it, or |removethispart|@ least allow you to make that decision for yourself,

While Moses here would probrobly not like this, I dont care need some professional help to pull Rixxer out,

So here is what he has to say,, Are you the 8 baller Rixxer, or can you handle factory Lubrication on these Import Rigs,,,

Yep it aint just Yotas folks,,,


Hi, Frank...Go to the Automatic Transmission Workshop at the website. There
is a sub-menu item for the 'Q&A' at that section. (I launched the Q&A for
the section in the wee hours this morning.) You'll find my comments on the
AW-4 plus your 45RFE/545 troubleshooting pearls.

As for the Ross cam-and-lever steering gear, EP rated gear oil or quality
semi-fluid grease will work here. (I do not recommend semi-fluid for other
steering gear types unless specified.) I'd like to play with the EP-rated
polyurea CV-joint grease. This grease is contemporary and covers your butt
on liability when specified for CV-joints, i.e., axle shaft joints.

As for oil-filled wheel hubs, you and I both can find examples of oiled hubs
working just fine. There is also the "weird" grease you describe, found in
the wheel hubs of Isuzu 4x4s (Geo Trackers, too). It's quite possible that
your assumptions are correct with regard to first-fill greases. There may
well be a distinction between OE fill grease and the OE-recommended service
greases for the U.S. market. As an automotive writer, however, unless I have
proof of the actual grease type used as OE at first-fill, I cannot wing it
with presumptions based on the Old Man Willys theme. I, and my book
publisher, would be vulnerable to lawsuits...

Although I am characterizing my position as a writer, this actually applies
to you as well. Let's say some eight ball reads your recommendations, based
upon your years of research. You proclaim your hearty recommendation that
semi-fluid grease is wonderful for both closed knuckles and for wheel
bearings. He accepts your mantra, decides to change grease, and in the
process uses Stoddard solvent for cleaning. He "fills" the knuckle cavities,
and without drying the bearings, he does a half-assed job of slopping grease
on the bearings (without a packer or our time-honored, scup method of hand
packing)...Then he misadjusts the bearings (too loose or tight, take your
pick) and heads out on the highway. The solvent-thinned grease runs like
sewing machine oil over the brakes, partially due to his bad installation of
the inner wheel seals. Meanwhile, the misadjusted bearings create a wheel
wobble that is aggravated by loose knuckle bearings (kingpin shimmy) and
sagging vintage springs, which have dropped the caster angle to 0-degrees.

Now the accident occurs because the Jeep, Land Cruiser, Samurai, you name it
with a closed knuckle front axle, cannot stop or loses control. The legal
issues sort out in the pending lawsuit, and eight ball is asked how he
services his truck and to what standards...Before it's through, the
semi-fluid grease, unless OE recommended for the wheel bearings and hubs, is
found to be the "culprit". Get the picture? Who will they point the finger
at, and will you have legally binding, counterpoint proof for your defense?

You may think this unimportant, but we do live in a sue-happy, juridical
society. To date, I have never been sued or accused of malfeasance in my
recommendations or edicts. That is because I cover my comments with facts
from OEM and product manufacturer sources. Obviously, when I know that OEM
information is incorrect, I rectify the error by using other "official"
information that does make sense, or I simply omit the use of that reference
and guideline...This is not the same as using a 1941Willys reference to
justify the use of NLGI #0, #1 or #2 fibrous sodium grease in a 1992 Land
Cruiser's front axle. The better legal argument would be to prove that the
Land Cruiser's first fill was fibrous sodium grease of a specific NLGI
rating.

While I hinted that you and I should have pursued mechanical engineering
degrees, I did go as far as to earn a pre-law degree, which has served me
well for making comments and recommendations in the public arena. It's great
to be "right" in a perfect world. In this world, we have to be thoughtful
about the things we proclaim, especially when recommending mechanical
solutions that veer from a manufacturer's recommendations.

Now, if you're bent on exposing the Toyota, Isuzu, Geo Tracker and other
mystery greases, the simplest solution is to snag a sample of OE, first-fill
grease from a suitable model and have it laboratory analyzed to identify its
chemistry and NLGI rating. As far as these manufacturers' motives for using
these greases, maybe these greases are available in the Asian market; maybe
U.S.-formula grease is not. It would be interesting to note whether Toyota
4x4s built in the U.S. use the same first-fill grease as those built in
Japan. If so, what is that grease and where is it available?

I'm focused on today's North American market greases, which makes me
curiosity about polyurea grease designed for CV-joints and wheel bearings.
Vintage closed knuckle axle tests could confirm containment, ball face
filming, inner seal survival and wheel bearing service.

Regards,

Moses