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How to turbocharge a 16V Trackick

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Offline bentparts

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How to turbocharge a 16V Trackick
« on: July 30, 2009, 03:26:44 PM »
The usual stuff, and 2nd generation Air to liquid intercooled TURBOCHARGER

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Offline mverley

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Re: How to turbocharge a 16V Trackick
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2009, 09:12:28 PM »
I Like it...would be interested to see it in person.  Too bad you live 3000 miles away from me.  Drive it to Powerfest this year!

I built the turbo manifold for my 1.6L VW diesel out of sch40 mild steel 1 1/2" pre-bent 45degree ends; I just painted it with the 1200 degree ceramic manifold paint.  I used it for about 2 years of hard wheeling and never had a problem with it.  My flange was only 3/8" thick.  I was careful to keep my EGT's under 1250 all the time.  Do you know what kind of egt you get with the 16v?  Just curious why mine worked and you had problems with yours.  I had never built a turbo manifold before that, and never have since.  Maybe I got lucky with my materials?
Your craftsmanship on that manifold looks topnotch...I'd like to see something like that under my hood.  The SS certainly will handle the heat cycles better than the mild steel you were using before.  Do you have a writeup on the turbo swap (EFI controls, turbo selection, wastegate, etc.) ?
My rig is a fusion of Jazz and Funk; I call it JUNK

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Offline Jeremiah

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Re: How to turbocharge a 16V Trackick
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2009, 10:28:16 AM »
*edited to add a butt load of links*

The suzuki world is over-due for a consolidated Turbo thread... here's some links I picked up along the way. If the mods don't want a bunch of links to other sites, I understand... just let me know and I'll make a consolidated turbo tech thread on another board instead.

Builds / DIY
jardamuth's: http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=315025&page=1&pp=25
Sean Devinney of aftermarket 4x4: http://pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=701496&highlight=turbo
Wild's header builds: http://wildcatent.freeyellow.com/zookmods/
Vermin's build: http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=380562&highlight=turbo
nester's build: http://bbs.zuwharrie.com/content/topic,91216.0.html
Walter's: http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2964661
ZC build: http://thezcr.com/html/jnkyrdturbo.html
Turbos for Tightwads: http://www.highperformancepontiac.com/tech/0309pon_1979_turbo_trans_am/index.html
Marge pipe: http://www.theturboforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=65147.0
Turbo header: http://www.sdsefi.com/techheader.htm
LC-1 wideband A/F Gauge: http://www.theturboforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=77263.0
HMT builds: http://www.homemadeturbo.com/turbo_projects/
VDO Boost Gauge Instructions: http://www.roadraceengineering.com/instructions/vdoboostgaugeinstructions.htm

Keyboard engineering
Some interesting discussion here (I've abandoned the propane idea, as I don't think I can locate the tank inside my 4-door) - great pics on page 2: http://www.zukikrawlers.com/showthread.php?t=21187
E85 is pretty cool stuff: http://www.theturboforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=47094.0
http://olskoolrodz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47370&page=1


Turbo Tech / Basics / forums
Turbomustang bible: http://www.turbomustangs.com/turbotech/main.htm
Basics: http://www.theturboforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=38388.0
Teamswift.net Turbo and Nitrous FAQ's: http://teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6701
teamswift.net Turbo theory: fuel and timing requirements: http://teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=13605
How To Choose The Right Turbo: http://teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=23530
(if anyone knows the volumetric efficiency of suzuki engines, I'd LOVE to know)
HMT: http://www.homemadeturbo.com/forum/index.php?topic=28135.0
Junkyard Single/ Twin Turbo FAQ List: http://www.theturboforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=4365.0
junkyard turbo list: http://hondaswap.com/forced-induction/junkyard-turbo-list-48045/
JYT: http://www.junkyardturbos.com/
http://www.turboforum.net/forums/index.php

For fun
First American turbo V8: http://jalopnik.com/5106163/the-ladies-dig-turbo-rocket-fluid-1962-oldsmobile-jetfire?autoplay=true
« Last Edit: August 03, 2009, 01:01:07 PM by Jeremiah »
'96 4 door kick: 29" Pep-Boys M/T, 1.5" OME
'83 SJ410: 31" Toyo M/T, SPOA, 1.3L
'08 Yamaha FZ6

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Offline ebewley

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Re: How to turbocharge a 16V Trackick
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2009, 10:38:58 AM »
build write up at www.flickr.com/photos/bentparts.


Please refer to the welcome message on this section of the forum. http://www.zukiworld.com/forum/index.php?topic=18545.0

Posts with just links will be removed... Normally, I'd delete this post but Bentparts always helps out fellow enthusiasts so I'll make an exception. :) I would like to encourage a technical discussion here though to help those that are thinking about doing this modification.

Thank you, Eric
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Offline bentparts

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Re: How to turbocharge a 16V Trackick
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2009, 10:10:14 AM »
Thanks Eric, if I was anymore computer savvy, I'd figure out a way to edit that stuff and just post it here as a write up. I certainly could use some help with that.
Sewerzuk, the first manifold I made, was fabbed out of regular exhaust tubing, and just couldn't take the heat or vibration. First time for me too, and I learned some important stuff, Like first, get the knowledge you need, then BUILD! Of course, the first install gave me valuable information on things like underhood heat management, vunerable components near the turbo, and general service issues that needed to be addressed.
The second build addressed all the issues I had with the first one, and included everything I had learned about weak areas, power needs, and serviceability. I really did a lot of research on materials for the manifold, and got ahold of a great guide for building turbos: Maxium Boost by Corky Bell. Covers everything from begining to end on turbocharging anything. The stainless steel manifold was determined to be the most durable, and stainless was also the best choice for heat retention, exactly what you need to run the turbine wheel. It is a bitch to work with though, cutting and fabbing all the joints requires lots of grinding and cut off wheels. Mine is made of Schedule 40 grade 304 stainless steel weld el's, and the main collector tube is 304 Sched 80, for ultimate strength, and maximum heat retention. I also found that SS is much easier to heat shield, keeps the engine compartment much cooler, and is very resistant to corrosion. It's virtually rust free, even after several years of use and being splashed with mud and occasionally being submerged as well.
The Turbo I used is an IHI RHB5 with an internal wastegate, blow off at 7lbs, common to the Ford Probe, Mazda 6, Suburu of late 80's early 90's vintage. Wildgoody gets the credit for finding the turbo and experimenting with it first.  It's sized perfectly for this appliction, and only required some mods to the exhaust side flange to get it to fit. I did modify the intake side of the turbo (compressor housing)  to make install easier, and to eliminate as many unnecessary clamps and bends in the air plumbing as possible, and simplify maintence. The system was built to fit into the stock location, with all the stock intake and sensors. This way, swapping back to stock would not be an issue, even on a long trip, if there were some kind of catistropic failure af any part of the turbo system.
As far as the ECU and fuel management, I used all the stock components, including the MAS in the airbox, and all the other stock sensors, and the stock ECU. I upgraded the fuel injectors from the stock 175cc to 210cc injectors out of a Nissan v6 pathfinder, which use the same electrical connectors and fit like the stockers. Eventually I also added a manually adjustable fuel pressure regulator and run 47lbs of fuel  pressure as opposed to about 38 stock. Stock fuel pump. By keeping boost pressures to a conservitive 5/6 lbs, the stock engine internals are more than strong enough to handle the added pressure and power. I did retard the timing 2 degrees from stock, but that seems to be more related to ambient tempertures and fuel quality than anything else. I've found in the colder months, I can go back to stock timing, 5 Degrees BTDC, and have no pinging or detonation even under the heaviest boost conditions.
Before I actually got the turbo installed, I installed all the guages to get them working and have a way to get baseline information for comparison. The oil pressure readings were at first startling to me: up to 80+ lbs when cold, before warming up. At highway cruise speeds I was getting a consistant 60lbs +or- 3 lbs of oil pressure.  This explained the oil draining problems I esperienced during the first build. The turbo only needs 25, anymore than that and it floods. I installed the scavcange pump, problem solved, but I did eventually get enough information about oil restrictors to figure out a way to put in a adjustable valve with a pressure guage inline to the turbo and get the pressure where it needed to be. I can probably eliminate the scavange pump, but it's already there and works fine. If / when it fails I'll go directly to the drain already fited to the oil pan.
The EGT's  were another real eye opener. in stock form, with the temp probe mounted near the same location, about 6" after the collector, on the highway , STOCK, it ran in the 1200 to 1400 degree range. I thought this was pretty hot, but after talking to several experienced turbo builders, I was convinced this was normal. Once the turbo was installed and running , EGT's at highway speesd: 12 to 1400 depending on how long I was on boost, like going up a paticularly long mountain grade it'll get near the 1400 mark and stay there untill I'm off boost. Running down the highway ant normal speeds, 65/70mph, not on boost 8 to 1000. Pretty much the same as stock with a Calmini header.
I've been running this setup for over a year now with no problems, and it runs great. Plenty of power when needed, stock like normal operation when not on boost. Boost available anytime you step on the pedal, and surprising accelleration, just ask anyone who's been in it! If anyone has anymore questions I'll be happy to do my best to answer.
The usual stuff, and 2nd generation Air to liquid intercooled TURBOCHARGER

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Offline ack

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Re: How to turbocharge a 16V Trackick
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2009, 04:37:20 PM »
...something like this??



2nd gen turbo install complete.



Intake and compressor outlet into air to liquid intercooler. Bypass valve, oil pressure regulator


Turbo manifold with heat sheild, airbox to turbo inlet.



Air passages surrounded by liquid coolant ( mostly water.) Coolant enters via bottom tube and ensures a complete fill of intercooler. Exits out top tube to heat exchanger mounted behind front bumper.



Modifying the intercooler end caps , removing original cast mounts from the ends, allowed mounting directly to the throttle intake. This in itself eliminated about 4 feet of charge air tubing and associated bends and clamps.


There were several goals in redesigning the turbo system. First was to make a manifold that would stand up to long term use without failures. Second, was to simplify all the charge air pathways and eliminate as many clamps, bends and joints in the system as possible. This would greatly increase the relibility of the system, while increasing the efficiency of the turbo at the same time. It also makes the system much more maintenence friendly. This is the final configuration of the redesigned Tracker turbo system. It is as simple and strong as I could practicly make it. The air intake and exit from the turbo are as short as possible, with as few bends as space would allow. This config changed the behavior of the turbo from a high rpm biased system to a low to midrange enhanced system. Much more useable for real world driving.



Heat sheild mounted to turbo.



Another view of pressure regulator.



This side shot shows how little room there is to work with in the engine compartment in a Tracker or Sidekick.



I tried to eleminate as many clamps as possible in the system, so I made this inlet out of aluminum weld els and welded it directly to the turbo inlet housing. Also makes it much easier to install and remove. Eventually I added another 7" of schedule 40 aluminum tubing to this and completely eliminated all the clamps and silicone extensions from the intake side of the turbo.



Although the first gen manifold was good at directing the exhaust gasses to the turbo, it suffered from heat and vibration cracking due to poor material choice ( my first attempt at building a turbo manifold.) This manifold is a much simpler design, made from 304 and 316 grade schedule 40 weld els and schedule 80 stainless steel tubing. It's not as efficient at directing the exhaust gasses, but is many times stronger and heat resistent that the mild steel tubing manifold I first built.



Changing the shape of the manifold meant I had to modify the previous downpipe to fit. I used most of the old pieces, and added a 2' section of stainless at the bottom to make the final fit. The tilting of turbo is caused by a mis aligned mounting flange that moved during the welding process. I eventually cut it off, made a new one, and welded it back on correctly.



Multi colored hew associated with heated stainless steel.



Heat sheilds in engine compartment



New mounting of exhaust allows it to sit much higher for better ground clearence.



2.5" tubing runs straight from the turbo downpipe to freer flowing turbo muffler. The turbo system eliminated the need for a cat, since it passed NJ state emissions testing without one. Frame crossmember rotated to let exhaust pass above it.



2.5" tailpipe exits above frame, about 7" higher than stock



(for some reason, flickr may not show this pic. I don't know why...  -Ack)

I wanted to tuck the new 2.5" exhaust system for the turbo up into the frame higher. In order to do this I had to cut and rotate this crossmember about 130 degrees. The main exhaust tube can now fit above it, wheras the original fitting of the exhaust was below it.











Excellent flickr writeup!

Source: http://www.flickr.com/photos/bentparts/sets/72157608542866562/
Ack

'88 Samurai, '88.5 Samurai TT, '11 Ford Transit Connect XLT
Ack's FAQ  http://www.acksfaq.com

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Offline bentparts

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Re: How to turbocharge a 16V Trackick
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2009, 08:34:49 PM »
ACK, Thanks ! You are the MAN! Now that makes the thread. All I needed was a real editor! Thanks again, Mike.
The usual stuff, and 2nd generation Air to liquid intercooled TURBOCHARGER

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Offline Jeremiah

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Re: How to turbocharge a 16V Trackick
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2009, 09:50:25 PM »
bentparts,
* Didn't you do an article showing how to modify the stock FPR to run higher pressure?
* You say you've submerged the turbo - has that created any problems? I was told that would crack / damage the turbo... is this just a myth?
* What brand / how much did that scavange pump cost?
* Is that water to air intercooler hooked into your radiator / coolant system somehow, or is it an independent system with it's own heat exchanger (which I presume vents off to air like a radiator)?
* Did you change the injectors because things were running too lean, or because that's what wild did? Doesn't that make the AFR too rich off boost?
'96 4 door kick: 29" Pep-Boys M/T, 1.5" OME
'83 SJ410: 31" Toyo M/T, SPOA, 1.3L
'08 Yamaha FZ6

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Offline bentparts

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Re: How to turbocharge a 16V Trackick
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2009, 06:32:03 AM »
Jeremiah, as a matter of fact, I did do an article on the fuel pressure regulator, I think it was titled 16v fuel pressure , or something like that. I do know it's in the Suzuk forum though.

I've submerged the turbo many times without issue. In fact, last weekend at Gonzukin I ran through the deepest water I've ever gone through, over the hood, ( well, gone through and DROVE out!) no problem. I guess that rumor began because somebody took a look under their hood after a run on boost and saw that glowing red turbo and assumed it would crack or something it you submerged it in water. It probably would IF, you submerged it while it was RED hot. Thing is, while 4 wheeling or trailing, your almost NEVER on boost, unless you want to show off. You hit the water at the same temp as a stocker, and they don't break. Really not an issue.

The scavange pump is made and sold by a company called RB Racing. They specialize in Turbo motorcycles, Harleys and BMW's mostly. It's a gerotor type, and is quite durable, quiet, and only pulls a few amps. The cost however is a bit steep: $200. I used an inexpensive diaphram type pump, ( read surflow) the first time, and besides being quite noisy, couldn't take the high temp oil for long and failed. This pump is designed specifically as a hot oil scavange/or pressure pump for turbocharging, and uses hand lapped bronze gears, a motor designed for long term operation, and works great.

The air to liquid intercooler has it's own seperate cooling system, consisting of a 2+ gal. coolant tank mounted in the rear of the Tracker on the frame, a 12 volt pump to circulate the coolant, (this time a surflow is fine) and a heat exchanger, basiclly a LARGE trans cooler radiator mounted in the lower bumper. This gives the intercooler a consistant temp, and it can run temps as low as ambient. Typical engine coolent temps can range from 180 to 220, and therfor would only lower the intake charge temp to that level.

I changed the injectors on the advice of Wild and several other tuners. I used a formula in the Maxium Boost book to find a correct size for the amount of boost, and horsepower I expected to make. You need to know how much more air your going to push, turbo size, boost pressures at max, and a few other variables. Once again though, I asked a lot of questions of experienced turbo tuners, and arrived at this set up. It may run a little rich at idle, but it does seem to idle normally and not load up. It did pass NJ emissions without any prob, and the tech that performed the test showed me the final readings, and at all rpm, it is within specified parameters required by the state. SO, not too rich, and not too lean as to cause detonation.
I'm sure with a add on FMU, the tuning could be much more refined to reach optimum at every rpm, but the added expense, something like $2k for a Haltech unit that can control everything, just didn't seem worth it. The Tracker does run very well, and rarely, if at all ever exibhits any fueling issues.

Thansk for the detailed questions Jeremiah!
The usual stuff, and 2nd generation Air to liquid intercooled TURBOCHARGER

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Offline Jeremiah

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Re: How to turbocharge a 16V Trackick
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2009, 11:53:22 AM »
Woah - good to know about the sureflow... that's exactly the pump I was eyeballing  :'( Better to find out now though  ;D

SO, not too rich, and not too lean as to cause detonation.
Wild's is probably the first Turbo I read about on a Suzuki, and I do remember his experimenting with various FI (if memory serves it was on an 8v?). I've been reading, reading, reading ever sense, and trying to sift through information... and here's my understanding of how the ECU works in relation to the injectors: The ECU sends a pulse signal which opens up the injectors for a given duration. This is a certain percentage of fuel being introduced based off the calculations from engine RPM, MAF etc. Now, I thought if you increase the size of the injector, it throws things off a little. I'll attempt to explain...

Let's say the ECM wants the injector open at 10% at idol, 50% and 80% during normal acceleration (I'm pulling numbers out of thin air for the purpose of discussion) based off of a 175cc injector. If increasing to 210cc injector (20% larger), won't it be introducing 20% more fuel when the computer tells it "open up X%" based off of it's fuel mapping? So, I'm thinking maybe it's introducing 20% more fuel than it should be  ??? (hopefully this is making sense). But then - I'm an uber-novice and don't know a whole lot about FI. Maybe there's some magic happening in there that meters the fuel back down  ??? Anyway - it was my understanding upgrading injectors = changing ECU (or at least a piggy back, or ECU re-flash) to throttle back the larger injectors under normal driving conditions. Anyone's brain hurting yet?

On a side note: Sean DeVinney was originally using a rising rate fuel pressure regulator to introduce more fuel (a 12:1 I think) under boost. He's also running a UEGO wideband reader to monitor his air / fuel ratio. He's since removed the RRFPR, and claims it's not needed... that the stock FI bits keep the air / fuel where it needs to be without it.

Maybe I should get my hands on some turbo tuning books...
'96 4 door kick: 29" Pep-Boys M/T, 1.5" OME
'83 SJ410: 31" Toyo M/T, SPOA, 1.3L
'08 Yamaha FZ6

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Offline Jeremiah

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Re: How to turbocharge a 16V Trackick
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2009, 12:42:19 PM »
I just edited my 1st post to add a bunch of links.
'96 4 door kick: 29" Pep-Boys M/T, 1.5" OME
'83 SJ410: 31" Toyo M/T, SPOA, 1.3L
'08 Yamaha FZ6

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Offline ebewley

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Re: How to turbocharge a 16V Trackick
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2009, 01:03:00 PM »
Thanks guys for filling in this post and really giving it some meat! I think it'll definitely help someone who maybe interested in this but is a little concerned about what 'exactly' to do.

Very nice!

-Eric
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About ZUKIWORLD Online: We are an enthusiast web site dedicated to the promotion of the Suzuki Automobile as the best and most capable vehicle on the planet. We offer product reviews, Tech tips, DIY, Travel and Adventure, Forum, Technical information, Life Style, and so much more!

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Offline bentparts

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Re: How to turbocharge a 16V Trackick
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2009, 03:09:38 PM »
A 20% fuel increase at idle would tend to make it run fairly rich. I'm not sure how the ECU manages to do it, but my rig idles fine, no loading up. I know my fuel mileage did take a hit after installing the turbo, I only average about 21mpg, so it very well may be running rich. But the difference in power is worth the small decrease in economy, and rich is DEFINITLY safer than lean. Not quite ready for Cash For Clunkers yet! If there were an FMU with wideband sensor reading available that didn't cost an arm and a leg, I'd really like to try and improve the fueling across the board. 2k is just too pricy for me. I'm just guessing here, that a Tracker on 32x11.50's, with all the additional weight of off all the road gear, and sitting 6" higher in the wind that still averages 21mpg or better, must be running pretty well.
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Offline Rhinoman

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Re: How to turbocharge a 16V Trackick
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2009, 12:42:08 PM »
Wild's is probably the first Turbo I read about on a Suzuki, and I do remember his experimenting with various FI (if memory serves it was on an 8v?). I've been reading, reading, reading ever sense, and trying to sift through information... and here's my understanding of how the ECU works in relation to the injectors: The ECU sends a pulse signal which opens up the injectors for a given duration. This is a certain percentage of fuel being introduced based off the calculations from engine RPM, MAF etc. Now, I thought if you increase the size of the injector, it throws things off a little. I'll attempt to explain...

Let's say the ECM wants the injector open at 10% at idol, 50% and 80% during normal acceleration (I'm pulling numbers out of thin air for the purpose of discussion) based off of a 175cc injector. If increasing to 210cc injector (20% larger), won't it be introducing 20% more fuel when the computer tells it "open up X%" based off of it's fuel mapping? So, I'm thinking maybe it's introducing 20% more fuel than it should be  ??? (hopefully this is making sense). But then - I'm an uber-novice and don't know a whole lot about FI. Maybe there's some magic happening in there that meters the fuel back down  ??? Anyway - it was my understanding upgrading injectors = changing ECU (or at least a piggy back, or ECU re-flash) to throttle back the larger injectors under normal driving conditions. Anyone's brain hurting yet?

On a side note: Sean DeVinney was originally using a rising rate fuel pressure regulator to introduce more fuel (a 12:1 I think) under boost. He's also running a UEGO wideband reader to monitor his air / fuel ratio. He's since removed the RRFPR, and claims it's not needed... that the stock FI bits keep the air / fuel where it needs to be without it.

Maybe I should get my hands on some turbo tuning books...



The EFI modifies fuelling based on the reading from the lambda sensor, during mid load conditions it drives the fuelling rich and then lean again. By measuring how long it takes to go lean against how long it takes to go rich it can determine if the mixture is rich or lean. It then adjusts the short term fuel trim until the average mixture reading is 14.7:1. Using the short term fuel trim it calculates a long term fuel trim which is used under open loop driving conditions.
The problem is that the fuel trim is limited to a afairly small percentage of the initial value, its purpose is to adjust for wear and tear on the motor and the gradual deterioration between service intervals.
The other problem is that on most Suzukis there is only one fuel trim so if its rich at low loads then it leans the mixture, then its lean at high loads and it spends its time chasing its tail.
Sean's motor is a 16V and the MF apparently has enough range left in it to deal with a modest boost. An 8V uses a MAP sensor and this cannot go over/below atmospheric pressure, it will detect this as a fault condition and adopt limp home mode, you need a way to cheat this..
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Offline muskegtracker

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Re: How to turbocharge a 16V Trackick
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2009, 03:13:23 PM »
...An 8V uses a MAP sensor and this cannot go over/below atmospheric pressure, it will detect this as a fault condition and adopt limp home mode, you need a way to cheat this..


I have run a turbo on my 8V for over a year now with no issues associated with the manifold air pressure sensor.  It is a mild pressure system (Nothing over 6 psi).  Have others had problems with this?  I don't understand how the MAP sensor cannot go over/below atmospheric pressure, isn't it designed to read the fluctuations in manifold pressure while the engine runs?
91 Chevy Tracker
2.7L V6, Coil-over Suspension, ARB, and other goodies...
My build - http://www.zukiworld.com/forum/index.php?topic=25353.0