Hey Tone, glad to have your input. You gotta realize though the the vast majority of the "middle class" works just as hard as you do, without the benefit of a union to fight their battles. Your right, I for one would sure like to have the benefits and pay of the average union auto worker. I know what they make, most of my family worked for Ford and GM. I think the real issue most of us are not happy about is the fact that we as a non union working class group, who in most cases make far less than the average UAW , and definitely do not have the benefits of a UAW, Don't necessarily feel happy about having to have our tax money diverted to GM, or FORD or any other car co. that failed to make a product that would sell or be competitive. That's just crappy business practice. You call it a "loan" with the return to the government 40 billion in taxes and social security payments the first year. Wouldn't union workers have to pay taxes and social security anyway? How is that paying back the "loan?" I have to pay for at least half of my health insurance, I get no pension after 30, I sure as hell don't get to collect 90+% of my pay when out during slowdowns. The unions were a good thing when the major manufacturers were taking advantage of the labor force, but in my opinion there time has passed, at least the way they operate now. I agree, everyone should be paid a fair wage for their labor, but the amount of unionized waste I see everyday makes me want to scream rip off! I grew up in a union family, both Teamsters and UAW, and saw from an early age just how much those union guys got away with. Saw it FIRSTHAND. So yeah, I agree that in the beginning of the labor movement the unions were necessary, but now, personally, I think they just bleed the system. There are enough laws on the books so that unions are redundant. How do companies like Toyota manage to run manufacturing plants in America without unions and still have successful and desirable products without grumbling workers? BTW, how did you manage to tie social security into unionized industrial workers? I think your giving too much credit to unions. Safer work enviorment? Ever hear of OHSA? Besides if everyone who held a semi skilled job got paid a UAW wage and benefits, the last of America's slow moving products would surely be too overpriced for anyone in the rest of the world to afford them. How much more does the retirement benefit of the average auto worker in America add to the cost of producing a car? No wonder the competition can make and sell them cheaper. I don't hear anyone at the US Honda, or Toyota plants complaining. Ever consider maybe it's you guys that are making TOO much for what you do? Or maybe you think the guy working at Macdonalds should join a union a get $23.50 an hour to sell burgers. I know the unionized toll takers here in Jersey are making over $20 an hour to sit in their booth and collect money. Tough job for sure. How about the Septa bus Drivers ( union again) who make over $26 an hour for driving a bus. When does it stop being fair wage and start being overpaid? That's just my opinion. I'm sure I'm going to get flamed for this.