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Double Cardan ( CV ) driveshaft

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Offline bentparts

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Double Cardan ( CV ) driveshaft
« on: August 30, 2008, 09:01:36 AM »
Anyone put together a double cardan cv type driveshaft for a Trackick? Something along the lines of a Toy shaft? Any input would be greatly appreciated.
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Offline rockrat

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Re: Double Cardan ( CV ) driveshaft
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2008, 06:30:22 PM »

Problem is you Kick is a slip yoke and the cv is a Flange style. You will better off using a Non cv Toy rear shaft cutting it down then getting a conversion joint or making a hack and tap to make it flanges istead of Slip. PRoblem with the cv in the rear is for it to work correctly you need to turn the pinion up and that will inturn, playy hell with your rear springs causing them to not sit straight.

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Offline ack

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Re: Double Cardan ( CV ) driveshaft
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2008, 07:48:37 PM »
As rockrat says, you wold have to cut and remount a lot of stuff on the axle itself in order to set it up to take advantage of the DC shaft's properties.  Then there is the frame mount pivot point on the differential itself.  The factory suspension system nearly eliminates any possible change in the angle relationship between the face of the differential flange and the axial angle of the transfer case output.  And, yes, the rear suspension on a TracKick isn't as "flexy" because of this.

So a DC driveshaft mod would result in lots of work for zero gain UNLESS it was part of a total redesign of the rear suspension.

I have a Toyota DC driveshaft on my Samurai. It works great because the axle is supported by leaf springs instead of trailing arms and coil springs.  As the axle flexes through suspension action or spring wrap, the DC joint takes care of changes in the driveshaft geometry caused by spring and suspension flex.

This is where 15 minutes of "quiet time" beneath your TracKick looking at stuff can be a VERY educational experience for many.  It has been for me and my two TracKicks...
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Offline bentparts

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Re: Double Cardan ( CV ) driveshaft
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2008, 08:40:35 PM »

Problem is you Kick is a slip yoke and the cv is a Flange style. You will better off using a Non cv Toy rear shaft cutting it down then getting a conversion joint or making a hack and tap to make it flanges istead of Slip. PRoblem with the cv in the rear is for it to work correctly you need to turn the pinion up and that will inturn, playy hell with your rear springs causing them to not sit straight.
As rockrat says, you wold have to cut and remount a lot of stuff on the axle itself in order to set it up to take advantage of the DC shaft's properties. 
] Well, taking into account I've already done the "Hagen" over rotation of the rear axle, including remounting the coils and shocks, and fabricating a spacer and remounting the upper center link, I think most of the work is done already. About the only thing I think I'll need to do is make a set of adjustable length control arms to fine tune the pinon angle. As it is right now, the pinon is almost pointing directly at the t case output shaft, if slightly above it. That I think, is the primary reason I need to go with some kind of cv type driveshaft, the angles are eating up u joints, and I get a fair amount of vibes from the drive line. The Hagen mod did provide for an increase in wheelbase, enough to run 32" tires without any wheel well cutting, and did recenter the wheel under the well. It also moved the pinon up and away from most trail hazards, so all in all the mods were worth it. Ever since the mods were complete though, I 've never been able to really eliminate the driveline vibes, and the consequent u joint problems.  That is why, after looking at some driveshaft sites, and a bit of web searching, I thought that type of driveshaft might help the situation. How about it Rockrat, ever did this kind of swap and mod before?
I've come across several driveline shops online that advertise they can build or fab any kind of driveshaft, but I have my doubts about anyone that doesn't specificly have knowledge of our Zuks. Besides, most of them are in Calif or Colo.  I'm not that confident in my fab skills that I think I could make a "hack and Tap" work, but if it comes down to that, I'm probably going to have to go that route, then try and find a shop that can balance the whole contraption. Would rather have a pro do it though.  Could the kick slip yoke be cut and modded with a flange to accept a toy cv? Why not? Pros and cons?
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Offline bentparts

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Re: Double Cardan ( CV ) driveshaft
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2008, 08:57:27 PM »
 :P Oops, that wasn't supposed to all be a quote.
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Offline rockrat

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Re: Double Cardan ( CV ) driveshaft
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2008, 07:27:27 AM »
:P Oops, that wasn't supposed to all be a quote.

Yes but there is no need for a CV shaft in a KICK. remember the first 6" of the cv is pretty stationary taking up space before it drops down.  The only advantage to the cv is being able to turn the diff upwards, and becasue you have no wayt to do this easily in a kick with out adjustable arms you are going to have problems. You are better served by a non cv that is cut down, Utilize one of the year rear toys and have it cut down. Then get a flnge and mod it to the output. We are currenly looking into Slip yoke eliminaters for the kicks...

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Offline bentparts

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Re: Double Cardan ( CV ) driveshaft
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2008, 09:10:15 AM »
I guess I didn't make myself clear,  I have ALREADY turned the diff upwards, and ALREADY made all the mods to the rear axle, coil mounts, shock mounts, upper center link etc.,  via the Hagen Mods. This was done quite awhile ago to move the axle back and get the pinion up out of the rocks, and it works. The pinion is now pointed almost DIRECTLY at the tcase output, if just slightly ABOVE the Tcase output. The angles of the u joints are not equal, and this in turn causes the vibration, and premature wear. It would be reletivly easy to make the control arms adjustable to gain the small bit of angle adjustablity at the pinion to make it point DIRECTLY at the tcase output, since it's only off a couple of degrees. Now, considering that all the mods to the rear axle and suspension have ALREADY been done, and would be a real pita to UNDO, and bring the angles back to stock angles, and I would also lose the lengthened wheelbase and pinion to ground clearance I've gained, I think it would be a better solution to make the driveshaft work with what angles I now have. Rockrat, do you still think a cv driveshaft is not  necessary? Of course, I may misguided but everything I've been reading about driveline angles says this is the way to go.
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Offline MUD CHILD

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Re: Double Cardan ( CV ) driveshaft
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2008, 11:28:26 AM »
I am running a Toyota cv drive shaft in my kick. I too have turned my rear diff up to point the pinion at the t-case(Hagen mod) I have no drive line vibration at all. I was able to run a stock yota front drive shaft on mine with no mods done to it and it fit perfectly, the reason being is that I am running a kicker 2 t-case set up.
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Offline bentparts

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Re: Double Cardan ( CV ) driveshaft
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2008, 01:37:40 PM »
Thanks Mudchild, I was hopeing someone out there would understand what I was talking about.  I know I'm going to have to cut and mate a flange to the original output yoke from the Tcase, to bolt to a Toy driveshaft, but what about rear pinion end? Will the flange from the Toy mate up with the stock Zuk flange?
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Offline MUD CHILD

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Re: Double Cardan ( CV ) driveshaft
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2008, 03:14:15 PM »
The bolt holes lined up, but I had remove the pinion flange and machine the center hole(that centers the drive shaft) lager to fit the yota drive shaft. I have a spare flange that's already machined if your interested.
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Offline bentparts

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Re: Double Cardan ( CV ) driveshaft
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2008, 05:00:00 PM »
I may be interested in that modded flange. First I have to decide which driveshaft I'm going to use, or If I'm going to have one made up. The front toy driveshaft won't be long enough for mine with a stock tcase setup. Toy fronts are about 24" I think, my rear driveshaft is more like 33-34". Too bad about the length, I've seen 'em on ebay for 20 to 50 bucks. I know this is going to cost me some coin, but it will be worth it to eliminate the vibes, and prevent further premature wear on the rest of the driveline. Let me know what you'd want for the flange, or if you need anything parts wise. Maybe we can work something out.
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Offline MUD CHILD

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Re: Double Cardan ( CV ) driveshaft
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2008, 12:11:14 AM »
I may be interested in that modded flange. First I have to decide which driveshaft I'm going to use, or If I'm going to have one made up. The front toy driveshaft won't be long enough for mine with a stock tcase setup. Toy fronts are about 24" I think, my rear driveshaft is more like 33-34". Too bad about the length, I've seen 'em on ebay for 20 to 50 bucks. I know this is going to cost me some coin, but it will be worth it to eliminate the vibes, and prevent further premature wear on the rest of the driveline. Let me know what you'd want for the flange, or if you need anything parts wise. Maybe we can work something out.

I can build you a custom drive shaft to what ever length you want. As far as the flange goes $15 and you pay the shipping. I'll take a couple pics of my drive shafts and post them up. I used a toy front for my rear and a toy rear that I shortened for my front.
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Offline bentparts

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Re: Double Cardan ( CV ) driveshaft
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2008, 05:20:07 AM »
 "I can build you a custom drive shaft to what ever length you want. As far as the flange goes $15 and you pay the shipping. I'll take a couple pics of my drive shafts and post them up. I used a toy front for my rear and a toy rear that I shortened for my front."

That sounds pretty good. How do you balance them?  My Tracker see's a lot of high speed (65-70mph) highway miles travelling to various off road sites. This is the main reason I need a smooth drivetrain. I would be very interested in seeing your work, and working out a price for a complete driveshaft. I could supply a front yoke and rear flange, (if you don't have access to them) and would obviously buy your rear pinion flange. Also, would I need to modify the tcase output shaft to accept a center bolt to hold the yoke end on? I've been told I would need to drill out the existing pilot hole and thread it for a bolt, that I could do if necessary.
I would much rather deal with a fellow Zuk enthusist if at all possible, so I'm looking forward to seeing if we can get this together!
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Offline lil_Truck

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Re: Double Cardan ( CV ) driveshaft
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2008, 09:15:27 AM »
Just a note:

On Mikes rotation, if over rotate your axil so that the angle of the output shaft vs the drive shaft and the axil pinon vs the drive shaft are the same (+/- 4 degrees), you will not have any vibration problems.

I did this mod 4-5 years ago and have never had a vibration problem.  And I can run 70mph down the highway with no problems.
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Offline bentparts

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Re: Double Cardan ( CV ) driveshaft
« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2008, 12:12:40 PM »
Mine seems to be over rotated the correct amount, but I keep eating u joints anyway. Must be something out of whack, it seems to be angled ok, but hell, at this point I'm willing to try anything.
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