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how many times can cylinders be bored

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how many times can cylinders be bored
« on: September 07, 2010, 10:23:38 AM »
Forgot to mention, burnt piston and the others are 050 -thats 50 thou bore already right?  Can it be bored again?  There is a small scratch in the cylinder that had the burnt piston.  Wondering if I do not bore it and put a new piston in-will it just happen again.

Thanks for the help folks,
Jesse

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Re: how many times can cylinders be bored
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2010, 12:56:07 PM »
It's not really how many times you can bore the cylinders - it's more a matter of where it's at and how large a piston can you get.

Presumably we are discussing a Suzuki of some sort, or perhaps a Chevy or Geo, a rebadged Suzuki - the first oversize is generally 0.25mm, and the second 0.5mm or roughly 10 & 20 thou oversized - Suzuki doesn't sell anything larger than that.

If you were standard, you could bore twice using SGP parts - once to 1st oversize and the second time to 2nd oversize - or - you could bore once and go 2nd oversized - or if you were using third party pistons, you might be able to get pistons in 30 & 40 thou - in which case you could theoretically rebore as many as four times - or bore once to 40 thou.

You're talking about 50 thou oversized - rougly 1.25mm overbored - can you get a larger piston which will leave enough "meat" inbetween the bores? That might be a question to ask your machinist.  Is sleeving the block and boring it an option where you are (it is here) - if that's the case, you can bore it four times, then resleeve and bore another four times - rinse, lather, repeat.

50 thou oversized sounds odd - are you sure you don't mean 0.5mm?

And for what it's worth - it's so much easier to discuss an engine when we know which engine it is - what do you have - a Samurai with a 970cc engine?  a 1.3?  a 1.6?

Oh - how deep is the scratch?  Again ask your machinist - you may able to get away with just honing the bores - and the scratch is probably not the cause of the piston having a hole - it could cause some amount of blowby and oil burning though.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2010, 12:59:05 PM by fordem »
'98 SQ420 Grand Vitara
'05 JB420 Grand Vitara
'16 APK416 Vitara
'21 A6G415 Jimny

Re: how many times can cylinders be bored
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2010, 06:10:58 PM »
Sorry-
This is a 1988 JX with a stock 1.3 8 valve engine.  I dont know how to tell if it is an 1988 or 88 1/2.   Guy I got it from said it needed a weber carb-I have heard that story before on another post...Buyer Beware right.

It had spark, and was running fairly well surprisingly-just ran poorly going down the road-especially up a hill.  And it smoked more than I could live with.  Bought a compression tester to see where I was and they were all low (100-25-105-120) not exactly sure if I did it perfectly right-I was hoping to find them all about the same, but low.  The ~20 pointed me to the #2 cylinder.

Looks like someone has bored it already, pistons have 050 stamped on the top of them.  The bad one actually has a hole in it.
I know you cant tell but I tried to attach picture of burn piston and scratch-I know you cant tell how deep it is. I can feel it barely, with my thumb nail.  I would like to put it back together with new piston(s)-did not want to sleeve/bore again etc unless the new piston will rapidly burn a hole in it again.

Just trying to get this so I can drive it to work-not rock climb or race.  I really appreciate you taking time to help me.  This was definitely more involved that I thought-replace some seats, fix dents, etc. 
Thanks again for the help,
Jesse

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Re: how many times can cylinders be bored
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2010, 07:24:24 PM »
The pictures don't open for me.

Compression tests need to be done both dry & wet to really be able to diagnose the location of your problem - I was posting the sequence to do it in, then I realised you already have the engine apart.

Those compression numbers say the engine is in poor shape - very poor shape - you want to see numbers above 170 - from personal experience those engines will run surprisingly well even when worn, I had one that was down around 90 dry and over 180 wet - started and ran smooth, no smoke and burned very little oil - it was just way down on power.

I really cannot recommend just sticking a set of pistons & rings in there - how would you even know what size pistons to get?  You need to get the bores miked to determine what size they are bored to as the first step - and at the same time let them advise you on the condition of the bores.

An 050 marking could mean 0.50mm which is what Suzuki considers second oversize (0.020") - Low Range Off Road (www.lowrangeoffroad.com) can get you 0.030" oversize if it needs to be bored - I don't have much experience with them, but that's where I got my pistons & rings from - flat topped high compression pistons in 0.020" - I've since put about 4000 miles or so on that engine, and I'm very happy with it.
'98 SQ420 Grand Vitara
'05 JB420 Grand Vitara
'16 APK416 Vitara
'21 A6G415 Jimny

Re: how many times can cylinders be bored
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2010, 05:19:14 AM »
fordem: thank you for your help.  There is a guy with a race car shop down the street-I need someone to look at this that knows more about this than I do.  Thanks again,
Jesse

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Re: how many times can cylinders be bored
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2010, 05:52:20 AM »
You're welcome buddy, and it's always better if you can have someone close by take an actual "look see".

If you don't mind my sharing a little story.

Years back, when I was a young father and money was kind of tight, I pulled the engine out of my daily driver (had a friends car for a week whilst he was away), and took the block to a machine shop and had it checked - I was told it need to be bored +0.040" and when I questioned the shop, which I did because I couldn't see would should have been a standard block would need to go that large, they got very upset and told me to take it somewhere else.

I mentioned it to another friend, who also ran a race car shop and he stopped by later that day - ran a fingernail over the ridge at the top of the cylinder bore and said - you don't have 0.005" wear here - he then looked at the rings and squeezed one and said - these rings have no tension, this engine has been overheated - he picked up a piston and examined it, and showed me where there had been a partial seizure due to overheating (I had lent the car to someone else, who had experienced problems with it).

He told to put new standard rings in - and that if I couldn't get standard rings get +0.010" and file them - and that is exactly what happened - I had that engine back together & running a few days later, and ran it for many years after - the block wasn't bored, not even honed - and the cost of the repairs was a set of rings, the gasket set and my time.

This is the sort of thing that can happen - if you have someone knowledgeable to look over your shoulder and guide you
'98 SQ420 Grand Vitara
'05 JB420 Grand Vitara
'16 APK416 Vitara
'21 A6G415 Jimny