THose are indeed good points tim.

However, most americans could care less where something is made, who makes it, or the conditions under which it is made.   The driving motive here is cheap.  Read C-H-E-A-P.  THe soccer moms and dads are too harried and under pressure to look for a USA made product much less pay more for an american product.    Everyone wants a Cadillac lifestyle but wants to pay a chevy price.
Throw in the always increase in taxes and lower or nonexistent pay raises and the fact that its darn near impossible to find american made consumer goods, and its no small wonder we run such a massive trade deficit.

Not saying I agree with the way things are now, but unfortunately, you and I alone are not going to change things.

And don't think about getting into IT or services, the last bastions of job growth.  Those are going the way of factory jobs, to India and Russia, where a first rate engineer can be had for about 6K and even less in Russia.   In fact, IBM plans to move not thousands, not tens of thousands, but millions of IT and service jobs overseas in the next 10 years or so.
Try calling Sprint for assistance, and you'll be transferred to a call center in India.  I called IBM once and was transferred to a person in Pakistan who spoke decent english and actually had a clue.  Most don't.  But they are cheap!
Even Mexico is feeling the pinch.  After NAFTA was hearalded as the panacea for job growth both here and south of the border, Mexico has lost nearly half a million "maquilladora" jobs to.................China!  Yup, not even a few bucks a day can compete with pennies a day in China.

Even AT Cross, the maker of fine American pens, is moving to China.  Fedders already has. Cooper tire is going to get medium and heavy truck tires from China.  GM will soon be, if not already, importing fully assembled v-6 engines from China.  Lakewood is getting fans from China, Sony, TV sets and picture tubes.  Carhartt has moved 50% of its garment production to central and south america.  Woorich already has most of its garments made overseas.
Vietnam is the single biggest source of shoe subcontracting in SE asia.  The work even cheaper than the Chinese!

What's left?  NOt a whole helluva lot I'm afraid. Sure the free traders will argue this is actually good but somehow I don't see the silver lining here.

(off soapbox now)

What's left?  NOt a whole helluva lot I'm afraid. Sure the free traders will argue this is actually good but somehow I don't see the silver lining here.

(off soapbox now)

There is an old motto.  I try to live by it.

Think Globally, act locally.

It does make a difference.  Tell others.  Help them see that it makes a difference.  Send an email to your Rep.

If we don't do anything, we lose.  Our forefathers, my forefathers, gave an awful lot to get us to where we are.  If we can't get ourselves off the cheap-China tit, then we are doomed.  But at least I will try to fight it, now that I know.

Some of this is simple.  Stay at Days Inn, not Holiday Inn.  Shop at Best Buy, not CompUSA.  The price differece between many of the things is not that great to warrant buying foreign.  If you must buy a foreign made product, buy it from a retail company that is american.

Stop shopping at WalMart.  That is the easiest thing for me.

It's not secure to allows all of the manufacturing to go oversees.  It was our manufacturing capability that let us win the war.  If that power shifts to places like China, who knows the next time around...

This does mean that my GV will be my last Jap car.

Tim I applaud your dedication to this task.  I wish you well but I gotta be honest with you,:  You have your work cut out for you.

ALready you mentioned corporate boards and wall street as the moguls who place profit above all else.  I am with you on that one.  But how are you gonna change all that?
To be fair, most ceo's couldn't find their ass with both hands and a flashlight.   However a lot of their shortsighted behavior and decision making is due to the fact that their orders come from Wall street, not the marketplace.  That in of itself is an institution that will go on whether or not the public actually likes it or not.

You have taken on a formidable task.  I agree we need to do what we can but I can tell  you this:  IF it involves sacrifice (as in paying more for an American item) then you can flat out forget it because most americans don't understand what that means and sure as heck aren't about to practice it.

I think part of the problem is that for quite some time now, SOME American (and Canadian) products have been of rather bad quality over the last few years, especially the auto and electronics industries.  I feel that's big problem why a lot of people don't buy locally made products anymore.  I bought a VCR a few years ago solely because it had a "MADE IN JAPAN" sticker and that was reason enough for me to buy it with out even wondering what features it had.

THose are indeed good points tim.

However, most americans could care less where something is made, who makes it, or the conditions under which it is made.   The driving motive here is cheap.  Read C-H-E-A-P.  THe soccer moms and dads are too harried and under pressure to look for a USA made product much less pay more for an american product.    Everyone wants a Cadillac lifestyle but wants to pay a chevy price.
Throw in the always increase in taxes and lower or nonexistent pay raises and the fact that its darn near impossible to find american made consumer goods, and its no small wonder we run such a massive trade deficit.

Not saying I agree with the way things are now, but unfortunately, you and I alone are not going to change things.

And don't think about getting into IT or services, the last bastions of job growth.  Those are going the way of factory jobs, to India and Russia, where a first rate engineer can be had for about 6K and even less in Russia.   In fact, IBM plans to move not thousands, not tens of thousands, but millions of IT and service jobs overseas in the next 10 years or so.
Try calling Sprint for assistance, and you'll be transferred to a call center in India.  I called IBM once and was transferred to a person in Pakistan who spoke decent english and actually had a clue.  Most don't.  But they are cheap!
Even Mexico is feeling the pinch.  After NAFTA was hearalded as the panacea for job growth both here and south of the border, Mexico has lost nearly half a million "maquilladora" jobs to.................China!  Yup, not even a few bucks a day can compete with pennies a day in China.

Even AT Cross, the maker of fine American pens, is moving to China.  Fedders already has. Cooper tire is going to get medium and heavy truck tires from China.  GM will soon be, if not already, importing fully assembled v-6 engines from China.  Lakewood is getting fans from China, Sony, TV sets and picture tubes.  Carhartt has moved 50% of its garment production to central and south america.  Woorich already has most of its garments made overseas.
Vietnam is the single biggest source of shoe subcontracting in SE asia.  The work even cheaper than the Chinese!

What's left?  NOt a whole helluva lot I'm afraid. Sure the free traders will argue this is actually good but somehow I don't see the silver lining here.

(off soapbox now)

I hate to say this but this is my own personal belief as a red blooded American, and I completely understand if nobody else takes this particular point of view:

The worst thing in the world for the U.S. economy is if China becomes a free nation. The best thing that can happen for the American economy is if the Chinese remain under a Communist dictatorship because the second that system is dissolved, all sorts or jobs are gonna be lost in the West.

If I was the President of the U.S., the first thing at the top of my priority list is somehow, someway insuring that the Chinese STAY RED.

I don't know how I'd do that, perhaps military posturing of somekind... but, I do know this: China goes free and the West is gonna suffer big time economically. I'm talking everything from accounting jobs to IT jobs to industrial manufacturing, computers, programming, you name it, China will do it better and cheaper.

2 billion people who can read AND write AND are motivated to work twice as long at HALF the price.

Not good for us. Not good at all... The only thing holding China back is their leaders, and they are slowly, but surely dieing off.

Actually if Red China becomes free, so then come the reforms that take them from bush league status to a world power.  With that comes economic change and somehow I doubt 1.5 billion Chinese are going to continue to work for near slave wages.

Until then, we've got to start looking after our own interests.
Problem is, wall street money and influence go a lot further than grass roots protests.  ALways have, always will.

"Would you like fries with that".........better start practicing.  You're next McJob is on the way, right away, right now (sorry mcdonalds and burger king but the line is too good to pass up)


Everything has a cost.  Everything.  Sure you can save by shopping at your local big box store and load up on cheaply made foreign goods of dubious quality.  

But look a bit further...........with job losses, taxes in your state and local municipality will certainly go up.  This is due to decreased tax revenue.....ie the tax base is smaller and those with jobs have to pay more.
And you will see a cut in services too
My boss's daughter goes to a 4 year school here in PA and recently the boss gripped about how much tuition had gone up.   Yet in the same breath she says no matter what wal mart sells, she is gonna shop there come hell or high water because she saves a ton of money.  What happened here is PA cut the amount of $$$ to universities along with other select cuts to make up for a yawning budget deficit.  And PA is not alone.

You will see a decrease in funding for police, fire, and envirnmental protection.  Roads, already pretty lousy, will get worse.  Money for R&D will go begging as companies cut and slash until it hurts (or until Wall street is satisfied.......which may be never)

Eventually we'll start to roll back environmental laws and regs under the presumption that they're just too darned expensive.

Eventually, we'll reach third world status and perhaps then we'll all wake up and get with the program and draft laws that benefit us, not wall street.  Some day, we might even grow a pair big enough to tell the WTO to take a flying..*%$! at the moon and let us write our own trade laws.  Someday, americans might suddenly realize that good paying jobs are being eliminated at an alarming pace and that they're being replaced with wally world type jobs.

Someday.......hopefully before its too late.

Actually if Red China becomes free, so then come the reforms that take them from bush league status to a world power.  With that comes economic change and somehow I doubt 1.5 billion Chinese are going to continue to work for near slave wages.

Asia will always (for the forseable future) have cheap, good labor. Just look at the countries that are already operating in the free market economy: Japan (is at the top) India, Malaysia, Indonesia, Vietnam, South Korea, the Phillipines, etc...

That is just the beginning. China goes free and forget it, its over for the U.S. economy. Why pay an accountant in the U.S. to do the same job an accountant in China can do for 1/3 of the price? With the internet, jobs like accounting and software programming are all gonna go East.

The same way manufacturing has shifted to the East, so will white collar jobs. And the ironic thing about it is the internet (hello all!) is the reason these jobs can go overseas but the companies can stay in the West.

Scary, eh?

I see so many angles to this problem, it's hard
to put a single factor to blame, you have corporate
america being demanded to show a profit for the
investors, you have unions demanding rediculous
saleries and benefits, you have the American people
demanding more and more money in wages, you got
companies raising prices to cope with losses to taxes,
increased wages and shareholders wanting more return
on their stocks.

I can't make more money without it coming out of sombody's
pocket, and you know they don't like that so they make it up
someplace else (higher prices).

The way I see it, it all boils down to greed, I want to say
everybody, but I don't think this is true, so most want more
for doing nothing more, and not really putting in an honest
days work at that.

The whole work thing changed when we as a country shifted to
working for a company, tradeing dollars for hours, and not
working for ourselves, there is no incentive to work harder when
it is for somebody else, if fact it becomes the opposite, do as
little as possible.

And then there is government ....... Don't get me started  
Do you realize about 60% (if I remember right) of the jobs in
the US are government related !!!  read they don't produce
anything!! they on the other hand suck dollars away from the
working people in their wages and saleries and don't contribute
one bit to the GNP of the US !!!

I am including Federal, state, county and city governments
and all the various divisions that would be included, they don't
add to the economy, just drain it.

I'm not saying all government jobs should be eliminated, there
is a need for a form of government but it is getting rediculous,
we should give ourselves a big hand an pat on the back, the 30%
of us working, produceing people are doing a damn good job of
keeping this economy rolling, and I venture to say other countries
like Canada have at least as much government as the US does so
give yourselvs a hand too.  Good on ya.

Well I started on the ground and found myself up here on this soap
box, so I guess it's time to get off ..... Do your best, and buy domestic
if you can, heaven knows we can't all afford it, but if you can, do it.

Darrin

Uh beer, Japanese labor ain't very cheap, matter of fact, many factories have closed there and opened in China.

Next, white color jobs are already going to China, Pakistan, and India.  Russia is also siphoning off IT and service jobs.  This has been going on for a while.

A totalitarianChina will have much greater success in keeping the masses under the thumb of Bejing.  Introduce democracy and control then passes from the governement to the people.

Since we're so good at exporting, what we need to do is dig up some 60's radicals that liked to question the very essences of life and send them over to China to start asking questions and start getting the people to think.

Uh beer, Japanese labor ain't very cheap, matter of fact, many factories have closed there and opened in China.

I was trying to paint a picture of the East aka ASIA as a whole compared to the West aka the U.S., Canada and Western Europe.

The Japanese are at the top of the Asian economic spectrum. But, my point is still valid: the free market economy is gonna come from the EAST, not the West, in the next 20 years or so.

And yes, like you said, white collar jobs are already shifting to countries like Pakistan and Eastern European countries like the former USSR.

Yep, your correct, its already happening and if China goes free, again, watch out.

Cool thread. Let me throw my two cents in.

In the global "free trade" market, the result tends to be equalization - the poor get richer at the expense of the rich. As described in this thread, that means a transfer of wealth from the USA to China. Given the structural economic differences between USA & China (as but one example), i.e. lack of labor & environmental protections, controlled currency, etc., an absence of tarriff barriers as mandated by the WTO doesn't make sense. The Europeans seem to have struck a fairly decent balance between protectionism & global trade.

By the way, it is still possible to buy American at Walmart; you just have to hunt. I bought silverware at Walmart - only one variety was made in USA, but it was there, and it wasn't that much more.

  Like I replied to this post ( on another sight) before, Bottom line is every American needs to vote!!!!

I may be going OT, but I think it's important.

You can go to  http://www.howtobuyamerican.com and read a bit.  I recently seen this guy on a few news/debate shows, from OReily to MSNBC’s Economy Watch .  He makes a lot of sense.  The "free market" capitalists that were on the same shows had some pretty hollow reasons for their pro-global trade stance. It only makes sense to Wall Street how cares only about a bottom line and profit, not national securtity and citizen's welfare.  Buying too mush foriegn goods and services is the reason our trade defict continues to rise, and our standard of living continues to be whittled away.

Funny, GM making a car in Korea and selling it here results in more taxes and revenue remaining in the US than a Toyota built in the US.  It's more important to buy American owned than American made.  But American owned and made is the best choice.

I ordered his book from Amazon and can't wait to read it.  If buying more "American" goods can help dig us out of fiscal hole we are in, then I'm going to change my buying habits.

Except for Canadian goods.  We have a good trade balance with them.  Canadians are good people, and having a strong border neighbor/ally is important.  Besides, their cost of living is higher than ours!

Sorry to digress like this, and I didn't know it would lead to a great tire debate.  Just thought I would share what I thought was important to our nation.

Awe, great irony found here.

-Eric