ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Suzuki 4x4 Forum => Topic started by: explosivo on January 18, 2005, 11:48:02 PM
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Alrighty... the more I think about turbo'ing the Tracker, the more tempting it gets. But I have some questions about turbocharging the 1.6.
First, what's the better platform for boost? The 8 valve or 16 valve? I remember Wild saying something about setting up a 16v head... is that for the multiport EFI? Is the 16 valve head just better flowing/more effecient? What about the bottom ends, are there any significant differences in internal and block strengths?
Second, I read in a thread (http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=315025&page=1&pp=25) over at Pirate that you can use Honda D16 pistons in the 1.6L... because of the tuner market, I assume that forged pistons for the Honda are cheaper than forged pistons made specifically for the kick engine. Also, are forged pistons really needed? I don't want to get huge horsepower numbers, just a little extra power, but I do want to be able to beat the piss out of this engine without having to be always worried about major breakages.
Third, injectors: What kind of fuel injectors/fuel pumps be needed to run with the added airflow?
Fourth, the Megasquirt; educate me. I know it's an engine management deal that replaces the stock computer, but is it a unit that you buy already assembled and then just wire it into your sensors/injectors, or do you have to assemble it yourself? How complex is this procedure? Can someone with a basic understanding of most of the concepts involved with a wiring schematic in hand wire it up to work properly?
I think those are all the questions that I have right now... I was thinking about this all night at work :P
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Well, I can answer SOME of these questions, while we're waiting for Darin to wake up. The Mega-Squirt is a KIT. You solder the integrated circuits, and components onto the printed circuit board(s), THEN wire it into your rig. There is a guy that's building them, and selling them assembled, if I recall correctly.
I was talking to Hugh Reynolds at Reynolds Machine - he "builds" Suzuki Engines - He figures he can take a 1.6/16 up to about 140 Horsepower without any problem - the bottom end is strong enough.
I can't answer the rest of your questions positively, so I'll wait for more experienced feedback from others.
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Well, I can answer SOME of these questions, while we're waiting for Darin to wake up.  The Mega-Squirt is a KIT.  You solder the integrated circuits, and components onto the printed circuit board(s), THEN wire it into your rig.  There is a guy that's building them, and selling them assembled, if I recall correctly.
I was talking to Hugh Reynolds at Reynolds Machine - he "builds" Suzuki Engines - He figures he can take a 1.6/16 up to about 140 Horsepower without any problem - the bottom end is strong enough.
I can't answer the rest of your questions positively, so I'll wait for more experienced feedback from others.
Personally I wouldn't buy another Hugh Reynolds Special 1.6/8, yes the thing has 150 HP and not 140 HP but there's no torque. So when the work goes into a new motor I'll use the old one for a fishing weight.
{Worthless piece of crap and a waste of money...and you can take that one to the bank!}
~CZ
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Here..
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=315025
Here,,
http://www.megasquirt.info/index.html
And Here,,
http://www.teamswift.net/
I'm working on a T3 Garrett with a intercooler out of an eclipse right now, for my 1.6 8V. I would much rather use a 16V ( multi-port, better internals, and breathing) But an 8V is what I have for now so F,,,,,it. I was going to box the weber but I have desided to switch to TB FI. Im going to use a MegaSquirt II for management B/C I just bought all the FI stuff but It didnt come with the computer anyway. They sell all the parts on that sight for about $140 but I'v seen them built for as low as $250 on E-bay. I'm just going to build a log style manifold with weld-el's but they sell them here.
http://www.turbinetech.ca/FrameEN.htm
Here's how you make your own,,
http://www.sdsefi.com/techheader.htm
Aside from that Im pretty sure I can get away with just a stronger fuel pump. But Im not sure If Ill need a fuel regulator/that dumps more fuel on boost,,,,like this one I was going to use with the carb, or iff the MegaSquirt can handle that.
http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=4354&prmenbr=361
I'd most likely need a bigger injector too. All in all I'v only got $200 for the T3 shipped $26 for the IC shipped $30 for the mat. for the manifold $125 shipped for all of the FI stuff. So thats $381
And another $140 for the MS and most likely $115 for the regulator.
So thats about $636 (+-) But then I can sell my Weber, ported intake and header for about $300-400 bucks so its most likely gona cost less than $400 bucks.
;D
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O'yea this place has low comp pistons. $400 though.
http://suzukird1.netfirms.com/swift/gti/nfoscomm/catalog/index.php?cPath=7&osCsid=951587190245d5dd85e55993160ddfc1
I don't know about the honda stuff though,, there putting Vitara pistons in there crap. ::)
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The best platform is the 16V for it's flow,
but the best crank is the double counterweight
16V crank also, not that the earlier crank is
bad, but double weights is a smoother runner.
The bottom ends are the same in all 1.6L engines.
Forged pistons are stronger, and have a different
expansion rate than cast pistons (stock)
If you are going to get forged pistons, get the
low compression ones, you get more HP from
a low compression turbo engine, stock is 9.1:1
ideal would be 7.5-8:1, you will be able to force
more air and higher boost, and get more power,
as well as the torque will still be there.
Stock fuel pump is good enough, stock TBI injector
is not, and there is no way you can flow enough
fuel with it, no matter what pressure. It takes 4 times
the pressure to double the flow of any injector.
The stock fuel PSI regulator is a 1:1 ratio (on TBI)
so it will boost the fuel PSI to match the turbo boost.
If you go with an 8V intake TBI, you will need 4 extra injectors to feed the engine under boost, about 25-30
PPH will work fine, I found 17 PPH with the stock TBI
just enough, but not enough to run rich under boost.
CZ, the hughes engine is better suited to a street
application, any time you go from 80 to 150 HP the
ports are going to be so opened up the air flow under
NA conditions are going to suck until high RPM, now
it you mellow out the cam, and lower the CR and add
a turbo or supercharger, that engine will act totally
different, you might even like it. The engine will be
a boost dependent engine, but with a small quick
spooling turbo, it would be a rice killer.
Humzuki, don't build a log manifold, it's not a great
design, it will work, but it's got some problems too,
one is the space and location of the turbo, and if you
have power steering, the turbo needs to be higher.
You can't get a bigger TBI injector, and it's not worth
the $$ when you can get nice injectors for $5-10 from
the wrecking yard, these would normaly cost $50-80
from a rice tuner shop Ford Turbo T-bird has 35 PPH
and 2.3L NA has 25 PPH, Mercuer (sp) XR4Ti has 35 PPH
MegaSquirt has an awsome how to assemble online manual, called the MegaManual, go thru assembly,
testing at the completion of the phases, so if somthing
is wrong, you find it at that stage and can check your
work, if you can read and follow directions, you can put
a MegaSquirt Together, the MegaManual also goes thru
tuning and setup to get you running fast, but you will
need a laptop for tuning, unless you want to put your
PC on the road with an invertor, get a cheap pentium
90 or 100 they work great for this application and should
be very cheap $$ (nobody wants them)
Boost On
Wild
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Great Info Wildgoody,!!! Do you have any pic's of your setup? Especially your injectors.
O'yea I know log's are probably the worst style manifold, but I just want to get it all on there and working cheaply before I really get into dialing this system in and spending loot on an engine rebuild and nice new expensive stuff.
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Darin, If I were to bolt a turbo on my 16-valve, would the stock injectors be adequate?
The seed is germinating!!!
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I read a thread a thread on a Honda site about pistons. They are using Suzuki pistons for blown motors because they are stronger than the original Honda pistons and give a lower compression ratio. They are used as a cheap alternative to forged pistons. Using the Honda  forged pistons in a blown Zuk might not work as the CR could be too high, maybe they could be machined to suit.
It could mean that a Honda piston would make a good high CR piston for a normally aspirated Zook.
From what I read the Zuk little end might need to be bushed or bored and the valve cutouts would obviously also need to be checked.
The stock 16V injectors are unlikely to be suitable for a Turbo. To get the best low speed fuelling the injector size is usually chosen so its pretty much flat out at the point of max demand. Maybe Darin has tested them?
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Darin, If I were to bolt a turbo on my 16-valve, would the stock injectors be adequate?
The seed is germinating!!!
No, 25-35 PPH should do the trick
Humzuk
check out my site
http://wildcatent.freeyellow.com/zookmods
lots of drool stuff in there :)
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I have been for like a year now,,,,When are you going to update fool? ;D ;D ;D
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No, 25-35 PPH should do the trick
Care to put that in English? Something like:
Bob, when you get to the point that you're actually going to put a turbo on, you'll have to replace your stock injectors with <insert brand and model here>, and all you have to do for that, is <show me and tell me, here>
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So an 8v would do fine under a moderate amount of boost, but a 16v would be better, then? Is it worth switching to the 16v if I'm going after about 120hp, especially if overall cost is a concern? Will stock internals in either engine do the job for that power?
On the manifold, is it plausable to run the turbo on top... basically flipped over compared to yours to keep water and crap away from it? The guy with the turbo 4dr has a manifold like that. Where did you get the elbows to make your header, wild? Did you bend those yourself/have them bent for your project, or can you buy them? What kind of material is it?
Also, what's the best turbo to use in this application?
Intercoolers cool the air that goes from the turbo to the intake, correct? They're a good idea to have, correct? I remember you posted that your intercooler caught the debris when your bearing went out... seems like it'd be good to have just for that reason.
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hey wild , im a little confused i think it mite be too much information too fast,ill probably figure it out later and feel stupid but ill ask annyway,
can you use mega-squirt on a tbi and run new (4) injectors and use your trottel body to regulate air only,kinda turning tbi into muilti port injectoin without turbo? or will the mega-squirt not do that , would it work w/out turbo ,are power increases worth the trouble w/out turbo.
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I have been for like a year now,,,,When are you going to update fool? ;D ;D ;D
I've been meaning to redo the whole
page, actually, I want to make it into
a main page with a pic of me doing a
huge burnout, and then some buttons
with more details in those pages
I need to do some updating of the info,
but the info there still is worth reading,
even tho it's dated, Sorry :-[
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Care to put that in English? Something like:
Bob, when you get to the point that you're actually going to put a turbo on, you'll have to replace your stock injectors with <insert brand and model here>, and all you have to do for that, is <show me and tell me, here>
Bahh, that would make it too
easy ;) I thought you would
enjoy a 12 page booklet on
injector selection for the turbo
Track/Kick 1.6
OK, OK, I'll cut the BS and spill
the beans, PPH = pounds per hour
also can be measured in CC/Min
but I don't know the conversion
formula off hand.
What you want to do is get some
injectors from a 2.3L Ford Thunderbird
those are 25 PPH, the Turbo Bird has
35 PPH, either of these should be fine
as far as size goes, and will also give
a good idle with the MS EFI System
I don't know what Ohm the stock
Suzuki injectors are, tho I think Rhino
said they are low Ohm, or called low Z
I do know that the 17PPH injectors from
a Ford Escort are high Z or High Ohm, this
probably dosen't mean anything to you .....
Yet, but it has a factor in the setup of the
MS EFI system, Low Z require a peak and
hold, which limits the current so as to not
overload the FET's which are high speed and
high load Transistors, for all purposes, too
much current over heats these and can burn
them out, then the EFI stops working
To install the new injectors, simply remove
and replace with the new ones, use caution
and measure the Ohm of the old injectors
first Low Z is between 2-4 Ohm High is 9-16
Ohm, and if the old ones are low, no problem,
if not you could burn out the stock ECU from
over current
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So an 8v would do fine under a moderate amount of boost, but a 16v would be better, then? Is it worth switching to the 16v if I'm going after about 120hp, especially if overall cost is a concern? Will stock internals in either engine do the job for that power?
you will get 120 with an 8V easy, 16V is
easier to put different injectors on because it has
the bungs in it already
On the manifold, is it plausable to run the turbo on top... basically flipped over compared to yours to keep water and crap away from it? The guy with the turbo 4dr has a manifold like that. Where did you get the elbows to make your header, wild? Did you bend those yourself/have them bent for your project, or can you buy them? What kind of material is it?
I would do the manifold with the turbo on top,
this is going to be the next time I do a manifold.
The elbows are Schedule 40 black iron weld ellbows
from an industrial plumbing supply shop, about $6 ea
Also, what's the best turbo to use in this application?
Subaru 1.8L Turbo, or a Mazda 1.6 Turbo
Intercoolers cool the air that goes from the turbo to the intake, correct? They're a good idea to have, correct? I remember you posted that your intercooler caught the debris when your bearing went out... seems like it'd be good to have just for that reason.
Yes, air from a turbo can reach temps of over 280*
Yes, not only is an intercooler good to have, it is not
a good idea to run without it, the ping is uncontrolable
without one installed.
Yes, my intercooler caught pieces of the compressor
wheel, as well as a quart of motor oil that leaked out
of the turbo after it blew the bearings and seals
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hey wild , im a little confused i think it mite be too much information too fast, ill probably figure it out later and feel stupid but ill ask annyway.
can you use mega-squirt on a tbi and run new (4) injectors and use your trottel body to regulate air only, kinda
turning tbi into muilti port injection without turbo? or will the mega-squirt not do that , would it work w/out turbo, are power increases worth the trouble w/out turbo.
Sure, That's what I'm doing right now, as far as
power gains, you are not going to gain much by
changing the EFI system, you might get better
mileage, but unless you modify the ignition timing
as well, there is not much to be gained without
a turbo, but yes, MegaSquirt will work with or without
a turbocharger, you program it, it does whatever
you program it to do.
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I am going to be tearing into my engine here in about a month or so. I plan on replacing everything and building 4.3 like power with the killer weight of the Sami motor. I want about 170hp and maybe 200tq. I know that the Buick Grand Nationals were a tq monster. All at a low rpm, that is my goal and I only want to spend about 4000 with the whole set-up depending on what internals I run. I am excited about this SUPER SAMI POWER. One question would the Reynolds engine be a good idea or no, please keep in mind I plan on having a turbo or supercharger.
SAMIS RULE
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The problem with a Sammi motor is the short
stroke, like 15mm shorter, makes a big difference
in torque, and CCs, a turbo will help, but the torque
is going to be harder to get.
I would get low compression forged pistons, or
a set of destroked rods to lower the compression,
put on a 1.6 head and stock cam, you could use
a Hawks or Calmini cam, but Stock cams work very
well in pressure fed engines, and yet idle smooth
and perform well at off idle throttle.
You need more fuel, I throughly recommend the
MegaSquirt, for it's price and simplicity, bang for
the buck, there is nothing that can touch it.
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All the talk about the low and high ohm injectors... does that only matter when you're running the stock computer, or do you want low Z injectors with the MS and turbo?
Also, can a regular MIG weld the iron elbows, or do you need anything special for that?
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Sure, That's what I'm doing right now, as far as
power gains, you are not going to gain much by
changing the EFI system, you might get better
mileage, but unless you modify the ignition timing
as well, there is not much to be gained without
a turbo, but yes, MegaSquirt will work with or without
a turbocharger, you program it, it does whatever
you program it to do.
I'm working on ignition timing at the moment. I have some scope to swing it forward in places as our stock fuel over here is 95/96 octane (RON). I think stock timing is set for 91 (haven't got the FSM to hand), of course blown it will probably have to be retarded.
Wild, did you replace the MAP Sensor with a 2bar sensor?
Bobzooki, there is a LOT of reading to do if you want to understand it all, took me months to get my head around a lot of it and I'm an Electronics designer, I tstill don't get all of it, I need a lesson in the Ideal Gas Law now, moles? wtf? any physics graduates out there?
Really I don't think you need to understand it all, as long as you can follow a wiring diagram and then the setup instructions.
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What you want to do is get some injectors from a 2.3L Ford Thunderbird those are 25 PPH, the Turbo Bird has 35 PPH, either of these should be fine as far as size goes, and will also give
a good idle with the MS EFI System
I don't know what Ohm the stock Suzuki injectors are, tho I think Rhino said they are low Ohm, or called low Z
I do know that the 17PPH injectors from a Ford Escort are high Z or High Ohm, this probably dosen't mean anything to you .....
Actually, it makes huge sense (as a former electronics engineer). "Z" is the symbol for Impedance - which is like an AC version of resistance. For low impedance injectors, you have to hit them with a heavy spike of current, to get them to open, then less current to KEEP them open, hence the "peak and hold".
Thanks Darin, I am one step closer to getting my arms around all this!!!
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All the talk about the low and high ohm injectors... does that only matter when you're running the stock computer, or do you want low Z injectors with the MS and turbo?
Also, can a regular MIG weld the iron elbows, or do you need anything special for that?
Didn't you check out any of the links I posted? They should answer like 90% of your questions.
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"If you go with an 8V intake TBI, you will need 4 extra injectors to feed the engine under boost, about 25-30
PPH will work fine, I found 17 PPH with the stock TBI
just enough, but not enough to run rich under boost."
Wildgoody,
How and where did you put the injectors. I have no problem with fabin stuff but from a pic I found of the single stock injector in the TB I don't see any room for 4.
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I'm looking at the same thing, I have an 1.6 TBI setup an my 1.3, and was considering putting 2 additional injectors upstream of the stock injector to help with the boost. I'm interested in other options.
Thanks guys for all the great info. Hopfuly next winter the turbo sammy will be born.
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Thats what Im thinkin. As close as possible the existing one. Maybe right on top of the TB intake?
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Nah you gotta build a fuel rail and weld or tap bungs into the intake for the new injectors. It seams intimidating but now that I have seen wilds I don't think it would be that bad.
would you all be interseted in some parts precut for the header? Like the header plate or the collector plate. I think Wild and I can spend an afternoon and make some. I don't wanna make headers cause at this point every rig is different and that is something you gotta design but we can cut the plates for ya. I think that is where alot of the time is eaten up.
Thanks
Wayne
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Thanks for the offer on the flanges but I already have the metal and they sell laser cut stuff here pretty dam cheap.
http://www.turbinetech.ca/FrameEN.htm
I don't think it would be worth the work. I was just gona fab up some thing real quick to get this all together and running then I'll probably buy a nice prefab with equall length headers. Thanks though.
As for the injection. Wouldnt that make it a multiport? I should have just rigged a MPI maifold to fit then? Can you get a pic or some thing? That would REALLY help. I have no problem tapping bungs in,or weld'em, (Iv been meaning to hook my old mig up for aluminum any way)
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Thanks for the offer on the flanges but I already have the metal and they sell laser cut stuff here pretty dam cheap.
[url]http://www.turbinetech.ca/FrameEN.htm[/url]
I don't think it would be worth the work. I was just gona fab up some thing real quick to get this all together and running then I'll probably buy a nice prefab with equall length headers. Thanks though.
As for the injection. Wouldnt that make it a multiport? I should have just rigged a MPI maifold to fit then? Can you get a pic or some thing? That would REALLY help. I have no problem tapping bungs in,or weld'em, (Iv been meaning to hook my old mig up for aluminum any way)
Ive got a carbed sammy so I can't get pics. that would be up to Darrin ;D
I think ( correct me if i'm wrong Wild) he is using the stock TBI for running the engine and the MS for an enrichment only. his turbo spools quite low so it is probly working all the time.
I don't wanna speak too much on what he is doing cause I could be wrong and my turbo Exp is with VWs and carbs.
Wayne
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I was planning on removing the stock injector from my TBI cos it restricts the flow. I was then going to fit a spacer under the body and mount two Weber injectors in there (I already have some injectors).
I can't see the point in blowing a 1.3, most blown installations give around 50% more power. The Sammi is 63bhp and the 1.6 16V Track/Kick 95bhp. The 1.6 would be more reliable and a lot less stressed.
Anyone know whats in the distributor for the 16V, does it have two triggers. I have a couple of Baleno (Aero?) twin output coils that I plan on using for a distributorless ignition.
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Pics of the injector setup
(http://wildcatent.freeyellow.com/injector1.gif)
(http://wildcatent.freeyellow.com/injector2.gif)
The injectors need to be placed a little closer
to the head, and the head could be cut a little
to make placement easier.
I also think a throttle body spacer would help
with the placing of a Throttle Position sensor
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I think ( correct me if i'm wrong Wild) he is using the stock TBI for running the engine and the MS for an enrichment only. his turbo spools quite low so it is probly working all the time.
Wayne
This is correct, I use the stock ECU for cold start and idle
thru 1-2 PSI boost, after which the MS EFI system adds
more fuel according to the boost and RPM of the engine
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Sweeeeeet, Bro Thanks!!!
;D
Did you just tap the intake or weld bungs in?
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All the talk about the low and high ohm injectors... does that only matter when you're running the stock computer, or do you want low Z injectors with the MS and turbo?
Also, can a regular MIG weld the iron elbows, or do you need anything special for that?
Most high flow injectors are Low Z, ~ 30 PPH and up
A good 220V MIG is fine for the welding
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This is correct, I use the stock ECU for cold start and idle
thru 1-2 PSI boost, after which the MS EFI system adds
more fuel according to the boost and RPM of the engine
Crap,,,,I don't have the stocker. Cant I just use the MS as a stand alone.
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Wild, did you replace the MAP Sensor with a 2bar sensor?
Yes and No, the MegaSquirt comes with
a 2 bar MAP, and the stock MAP is still
feeding the stock ECU MAP info, the Check
Engine light pops on at about 5 PSI boost tho
;D
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Crap,,,,I don't have the stocker. Cant I just use the MS as a stand alone.
Yes, works fine, I kept the Stock system intact
incase I have to pull the turbo stuff for a smog check
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What about some of the aftermarket stand alone setups? The apexi and hks units seem too do alot and they look cool ;)
http://www.streetrays.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/22_82/products_id/7378
(http://www.streetrays.com/catalog/images/apexi_new_safc2.jpg)
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Sure, they will do the job
MSII will do the same job, and
has spark control with boost retard
all for about $200
Of coarse the cool looking box might be
worth the $1200
BTW that pic and link, it's not an EFI Computer
it tells lies to your stock system, read it won't
work for a turbo on your system, it just piggy backs
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Yes, works fine, I kept the Stock system intact
incase I have to pull the turbo stuff for a smog check
Thats good. I'll just swap my weber and intake back on every other year (It passes NJ inspection without ANY smog gear, aside from a CAT)
I didn't think MSII was out yet.
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There are 2 products coming, UltraMegaSquirt
and MSII, MSII is close to being released, and
is a CPU upgrade with some additional outputs
for ignition and I think an idle air control also.
UltraMegaSquirt is going to be out, but it still
has some R and D to go thur, tho prototypes
are out there and being tested, it will have the
ability to do auto trans shifting, and NOS control
as well as ignition, and boost retard, UMS is getting
as complex as factory ECUs are now, yet it is still
totally programable from your laptop.
Cool Huh ;D
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Yea,,Its dope. Iv always been a weber guy but Im starting to dig this FI $hit. The MSII is an addition to the MS correct? You need the MS first right?
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Yes, It's a daughter card with a
new CPU and additional I/O conections
for the enhanced stuff it can do
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There are 2 products coming, UltraMegaSquirt
and MSII, MSII is close to being released, and
is a CPU upgrade with some additional outputs
for ignition and I think an idle air control also.
UltraMegaSquirt is going to be out, but it still
has some R and D to go thur, tho prototypes
are out there and being tested, it will have the
ability to do auto trans shifting, and NOS control
as well as ignition, and boost retard, UMS is getting
as complex as factory ECUs are now, yet it is still
totally programable from your laptop.
Cool Huh  ;D
You can tell when you get Wild on a subject he likes huh ;)
Thanks
Wayne
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I was doing research on how I could
convert a PC into an EFI system, the
MegaSquirt saved me from taking my
PC on the road ;D
GTG guys
Lunch is over 1-1/2 hrs ;)
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the
MegaSquirt saved me from taking my
PC on the road  ;D
No it didn't! You still drag your laptop all over the place!!!
8)
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Nah you gotta build a fuel rail and weld or tap bungs into the intake for the new injectors. It seams intimidating but now that I have seen wilds I don't think it would be that bad.
would you all be interseted in some parts precut for the header? Like the header plate or the collector plate. I think Wild and I can spend an afternoon and make some. I don't wanna make headers cause at this point every rig is different and that is something you gotta design but we can cut the plates for ya. I think that is where alot of the time is eaten up.
Thanks
Wayne
I'd definately be interested in the header flange, as I have no way to make those with any precision. Let us know some prices!
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would you all be interseted in some parts precut for the header? Like the header plate or the collector plate. I think Wild and I can spend an afternoon and make some. I don't wanna make headers cause at this point every rig is different and that is something you gotta design but we can cut the plates for ya. I think that is where alot of the time is eaten up.
Thanks
Wayne
i've been waiting to hear that for a long time.  what will they be cut with and how thick will they be?
stu
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I'd definately be interested in the header flange, as I have no way to make those with any precision. Let us know some prices!
I'll talk to Darrin it is his design so he will have to set the price.
Thanks
Wayne
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i've been waiting to hear that for a long time.  what will they be cut with and how thick will they be?
stu
If it is just a couple a plasma cutter then a cleanup with a die grinder. if it is a bunch then we will see about lazer or a CC flame cutter.
1/2" steel bar stock
Thanks
Wayne
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Stainless 8V Flange http://www.davesport.com/cgi-bin/davesport/DFSUG13SS.html 8)
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No it didn't! You still drag your laptop all over the place!!!
8)
Well ya, but I was thinking about a desktop
PC system ::)
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Sweeeeeet, Bro Thanks!!!
;D
Did you just tap the intake or weld bungs in?
I welded them in, but I think I would use
threaded bungs on the next 8V manifold
I build.
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Are these the injectors your talking about. I don't see how they would use the same ones on N/A and turbo/supercharged fords.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33553&item=7949305029&rd=1
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I don't think that I would trust that guy,
I know the Turbo 2.3 uses 35 PPH and the
N/A uses 25 PPH, the others are probably
similar, somewhere between 22 and 25 PPH
I have an extensive list I could post, but
it's mostly for looking up sizes and the size
of injectors for pulling from vehicles
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hi all, havnt been around for a while, honey do list ya know... ;D
this subject is WAY beyond me, and after going to every link i am pretty impressed with you all that are biting this off. i do however have a few VERY simple questions after reading all this.... if you dont mind simple.
Is there a way to move or remove my tbi to increase air flow (1990 8v)?
i have seen 'squirel cage' electric add on blowers that go on the air intake, they worth a crap?
and lastly, will the MS or MSII do anything on my stock setup?
thanks :)
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Is there a way to move or remove my tbi to increase air flow (1990 8v)?
Taking some measurements off the stock TBI I would guess that the restriction would be around the injector and the throttle butterfly. You fit a different injector somewhere else bock off the holes and then bore out the base of the throttle body and fit a new larger butterfly. Then add a MS to get the fuelling right . Its a large amount of work and probably wouldn't give much of a gain, if any.
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Taking some measurements off the stock TBI I would guess that the restriction would be around the injector and the throttle butterfly. You fit a different injector somewhere else bock off the holes and then bore out the base of the throttle body and fit a new larger butterfly. Then add a MS to get the fuelling right . Its a large amount of work and probably wouldn't give much of a gain, if any.
Now what about doing that with forced induction? Or the TB work and then porking and polishing the head/intake with a turbo?
-
I was toying with the idea of twin TBIs,
mostly to get enough fuel, as I needed
a little over twice the fuel a stock TBI can
deliver, this was before I found MegaSquirt,
I would have done it if I could reliably weld
aluminum, but the cooling system runs thru
the intake manifold, and that seemed like
such a pain to work with and route to the
radiator
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Now what about doing that with forced induction? Or the TB work and then porking and polishing the head/intake with a turbo?
I don't think I'de take to porking the head :o
LOL
Wild
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the cooling system runs thru
the intake manifold, and that seemed like
such a pain to work with and route to the
radiator
Some Rover and BMW engines have remote thermostat housings that could make fabbing an inlet a little easier.
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Check this TB out. This place has some dope stuff but too much$$$$$
http://suzukird1.netfirms.com/swift/gti/nfoscomm/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=8&osCsid=6cb5723c22f9378c105a841b4e580539
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I would say $143 dollars is a bargain BUT where is the injector? Its not in the top anymore, I wonder if it is an additional cost. What about the TPS and air bypass too? At least it looks to have the correct mounting holes. I'd like to see some more details of this conversion it does look promising.
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I thought that was a pretty good price too. All the other stuffs kinda high though, for a muddy 4X4 that gets whooped on every weekend. ;D Looks like you might bolt the stock stuff on that unit. I don't know about there #'s though. I mean,,,,, there HP thermostat isn't putting 9hp in my rig. ::) Or anyone elses unless its an all out drag car.
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On my Big Cadi 500 into a 4dr Chev Truck project I'm looking at using Chev big block headders and cutting and welding Caddy flanges to them. ÂÂ
How about modifying a Production RWD Turbo headder in similar fashion for the Track / Kick1.6L  16v. ÂÂ
Turbo headders on Ebay are not to expensive, but the headder is holding lots of weight.  Would definatly need to be a good one, amybe also reinforced / braced.
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They sell headers that will bolt up. http://www.turbinetech.ca/FrameEN.htm
Iv only got a 110 mig and didnt think you could weld cast iron anyway. And I don't feel like switching everything over to weld stainless just for a header. But I get what your saying and have wondered if I could find a header off something else that would come pretty close to fitting and just mod it. There's gota be something out there that comes pretty damn close.
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They answer their email very quickly, unlike a lot of companies. They have some good stuff there too, the turbo headers look good, can't be cheap to set up the tooling for the level of sales they might get. Take the cast iron turbo manifold for instance.
This is their reply to my email query:
Dear James:
Congratulations! you have visited the most comprehensive site about the
Swift GT/GTi. Please feel free to send us any inquiry about performance,
OEM, Aftermarket replacement and used parts for your Swift.
> What injector does the throttle body require and is it supplied with it.
Item SUZ-TNT-2004, we bore out your stock part that comes with the Suzuki
Swift GT/GTi to 52 mm
Item SUZ-TNT-2005 we sell you a 52 mm Throttle body exactly as it comes in
the Swift GT you just install you TPS on it.
If you are taking about fuel injection injectors, they are not required.
> What TPS does this require and how is the air bypass valve affected.
It is not affected because it uses the same stock valve.
> Will this setup work effectively with a stock ECU?
Yes, it works great, the Stock ECU on the Swift GT adjusts to the improved
flow automatically, Only if you do more upgrades you may need the
SUZ-TNT-6002 Performance Temp senor to obtain a richer mixture.
> Are there any adapters required for the throttle cable.
No it works completely as stock on the Suzuki Swift GT/GTi models
We invite you to register in our website so you take advantage of
the features of our shopping cart such as saving your selections for
purchase at a later time, being able to calculate the exact shipping charge
to your doorstep, using the type of shipping service of your choice, and
having the opportunity to register in our news letter full with tech
articles, promotions, news, tips and tricks for Suzuki Swift GT/Gti models.
Thank you for your interest in our products.
Best Regards,
Suzuki Racing Development
A Division of ANCLA Inc.
Miramar, FL - USA
www.suzukird.com
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Before you guys get all excited, that's
a MPI throttlebody, it fits the Swift GT
which is a 1.3L engine, the stock TBI
unit on the SideKick/Tracker/Vitara is
about 52mm factory, from just looking
at it, it may in fact be 48mm, but this
throttle body is not going to fit and
without a MPI injection system do
you no good.
Sorry guys
Wild
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Before you guys get all excited, that's
a MPI throttlebody, it fits the Swift GT
which is a 1.3L engine, the stock TBI
unit on the SideKick/Tracker/Vitara is
about 52mm factory, from just looking
at it, it may in fact be 48mm, but this
throttle body is not going to fit and
without a MPI injection system do
you no good.
Sorry guys
Wild
That explains the missing injector. My TBI is 45mm at the butterfly. Would it bolt up to the TBI manifold, the fixings look similar. It could still be a possibility with a remotely mounted injector(s). While we're on the subject has anyone got a pic of the MPI manifold without all the bits attached?
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Didn't they put the 1.6 in the Swifts at one time?
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I don't think I have ever seen a Swift
with a 1.6L engine, most have 1.0L 3
cylinders, and some have the 1.3L 4 Cy
The Swift Intake Manifold is totally different
than a 1.6 TBI manifold, the MPI 1.3L looks
like a VW intake manifold, a plenum (sp) with
runners going down to the head, similar to
a 16V Suzuki engine also, but it's one piece
Wild
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Didn't they put the 1.6 in the Swifts at one time?
Yes but I've only seen carb or MPI on the 1.6 The early Euro GT was 115bhp carb and the GTI is MPI, I haven't seen a throttle body off one those though. The 1.6 Swift engine was just a tweaked SOHC Track/Kick lump.
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yes some of the 4 door sedans had 1.6's in them at least in Canada they did. Not sure of the type of injection though.
If you had a 16V I'm sure alot of the swift GT stuff would work.
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I have turbo charged and intercooled my Kick...so now I'm looking for a new injector? What about the MAP sensor and fuel pump?are the stock one's going to work okay with boost?I really like the idea of the stock ford 2.3 injector ...will it fit in my throttle body?What did you mean by needing 4 injectors...will the ecm recignize 4?
PS I just finished plumbing it today!That's why all the Q's about fuel delivery.Thanks!
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You cannot get enough fuel from a stock
TBI fuel system, you need 4 additional
injectors and a Megasquirt EFI system
to suppliment the fuel system.
Megasquirt has it's own MAP, the stock
fuel pump has enough flow for the extra
injectors
read or re-read this thread, most of the
information about this is in this thread,
including the additional injector boss pics
Wild
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But buy tapping the four injectors in where you have them, arn't you basicly turning it into multi-port? Not direc ,,,,but multi-port.
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Yes, and I also use the stock TBI
as well as the MPI MegaSquirt system
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How much boost are you running by the way? I was going to go with 7lbs. But now Im thinking of getting a used Dohc 1.3 (since it hase a forged crankshaft and shorter rods), and rebuilding it with some low com. pistons. Maybe even opt for the forged set w/forged rods so I could bump up the boost. The only thing is thats the ONLY Suzuki engine I cant find any rebuild kits for.
Maybe,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I think I just over think $hit sometimes. This was supposed to be a cheepie, job. ::)
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What engine do you have ??
I would say use the DOHC crank
if you got a 1.3L and I think the
16V pistons are available.
I reused the stock pistons and
honed the cylinders and put new
rings and bearings in it
I'm running 7 PSI boost right now,
the first turbo was set at 9 PSI, or
rather the waste gate was, but I'm
going add a blow off valve that will
let my increase the boost from the
drivers seat.
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Iv got the 1.6 in there now. I just figured If this all works well I was going to rebuild it with low comp. pistons, but then I started thinkin if Im going to build an engine why not use the one with a forged crank. Then I could just drop it in when its finished.
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The shorter stroke is a setback,
stick with the 1.6, stick a 16V head
on it if you want, all you really have
to do is swap pistons, but that is
even debatable in my mind as I am
going to turn the tops of the pistons
so the outer ring is the same height
as the dish.
A friend of mine who own Ballance Shop
Racing Engines told me that the piston
top only needs to be 100 Thousands thick,
so the turned down pistons, or forged
low compression pistons, either will work.
The LC pistons will more likely be lower
than the turned down ones tho.
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Yea,,,,, It was just a though. I mean,,,I allready have the TB and harness for the 1.6. I'll probably just get a cheap 1.6 8V that Needs a rebuild and maybe bore it out .040 and get the LC pistons if they have'em .040 over. How much do you think it youd cost to get'em turned down at a shop?
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I would guess about $100, but it would
be the shop rate and time to complete
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Thats not bad at all. Sure beats $400 for some LC OEM style ones. And Id rather pull the engine and rebuild than pay $657 for some cast ones. The forged rods would be a good investment though.
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Stock rods are forged,
but I could get some light weight
forged aluminum rods for about
$500, and in shorter length to
lower the compression
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They are? I though maybe in the Swift gt dohc 1.3 and perhaps in the 1.6 16V. Thats cool, Then what the hell makes these so much better?
http://suzukird1.netfirms.com/swift/gti/nfoscomm/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=7&products_id=29&osCsid=3f74847cfbe6b1e4a3e6ee01e3500824
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If I were going to spend that kind of money
on a set of rods, I'd get some of these babys
(http://www.manleyperformance.com/images/cngrdsBG.gif)
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Hey Wild,,,,Are you using a BOV? I understand you don't really need one but there fairly cheap considering it could save the turbo. I was thinking of using a universal or maybe just snatch one off an Eclipse or WRX what ever I can find cheap.
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a Gen 2 Eclipse BOV is very easy to adapt to just about any intercooler piping but it is a pretty crapy BOV.  but i have never had on one a engine with boost level below 14 PSI so i don't know how it would do on a 8(guess) PSI engine.  The Gen 1 Eclipse BOV is a very nice peace and can be adapted with some scrap tube and metal flanges.
stu
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BOV is for a stick shift, it just
keeps the turbo's spool speed
up between gears, automatics
don't need it 8)
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Cool,,,,, I didn't realize you were auto.
I should probably start another thread,,,,but, on the train this morning I was thinking about ordering the megasquirt today then all of a sudden I realized something.
All I have to do is box the Weber (maybe fill the float, and re-jet the secondary) and use a Boost refrencing fuel pressure regulator with a 1:1 ratio that will cover the lbs of boost I run. Like this one
http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=4354&prmenbr=361
And maybe I could get away with just retarding the timing for now. I could always use this if Im detonating.
http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=3096&prmenbr=361
I mean,,,,,the MegaSquirt II isnt out yet anyway. Maybe I missed it but, What are you using for the timing anyway,Wildgoody?
It seems like alot less work and It will keep everything nice and simple without all the wiring and sensors. If I go FI I need to switch the harness, tap the intake with four more injectors,make or adapt a fuel rail, build the MegaSuirt and tune/tie it in, THEN hope all the FI stuff I bought works right.
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I'm just retarding the timing for now,
ping has not been too bad, and if you
use 91 RON gas it's almost gone totaly.
Those are nice trick toys, too bad the
boost retard costs more than the MegaSquirt
:( Get the MegaSquirt 1 ordered MS2 is a
daughter card CPU that plugs into that anyway,
get it built and work towards the switch over day
Wild
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Yea, the MSD is $$$$ but I could sell all the FI stuff I bought for what I got it for $125 buy the regulator and see if I can get away with just retarding the timing for a while. The MSD is about the same price as the MS, MSII, and injectors. I just really dig the simplicity of using the Weber.
And I'll be able to head for the hills when we have to start using EMP weapons on the machines, when they attack! ;) ::) :P
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I forgot I can sell the Weber for atleast $150-200 its brand new. :P
Wild,,,,,check out the injectors on the right/top. Are those the ones you used? Or maybe two down from that one? The 36lb BoschE5ZE
http://www.fiveomotorsport.com/Injector_SetsFORD.asp
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http://www.sdsefi.com/
What about this get-up?
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$$$ for that setup
Yes 36 PPH injectors are plenty big,
25 PPH would do fine
Remember, a Weber, turbo or not will
still load up on a steep angle
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Yea, Im just going to go FI. I spun my Weber around last weekend so now it will climb up a wall but now I have a hesitation off the line and stall going down hill. ::)
I put a bid in on some Ford 33lb 350cc Bosch style injectors. And Im going to order JUST the MS and the Stimulator today. Is that all you used? Did you use the Flyback board, or relay board or any off the other extra stuff they have? Also, Where can I get some threaded bungs? MSD has some epoxy in "pocket" stlye. I don't feel like switching wire and gas just to weld 4 bungs in.
http://www.msdignition.com/fuel_9.htm
One more,,,,what the hell holds the injectors in? Do they kinda just press in and then you bolt the fuel rail to something so they cant back out?
Thanks for all your help,,by the way.
;D
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You don't need a flyback board for 4
injectors, only if they are lowZ and you
ran all 4 from one channel (MS has 2)
and the stim is only for faking inputs as
if the ECU were in a car running, I never
used one, I did the tests to verify
the opperation of the circuitry as I was
building.
Those epoxy in bungs should work great,
but I think you still need to remove the intake
manifold to put them in, you need to drill holes
and that should be done on a drill press for
acuracy. As long as the "MSD competition injectors"
are the same as Bosch injectors the epoxy in
MSD stuff should work fine, those are free standing
injector bungs, no fuel rail is used, so the clips
(Retaining Clip, Set of 8 PN 2155)
are used to hold the injector to the bung, also
get the 90° or straight injector feed fittings
(90° Fuel Delivery Top Mount, Set of 8 PN 2135)
(Straight Fuel Delivery Top Mount, Set of 8 PN 2140)
to feed the injectors, these use flexable lines, make
sure to use high pressure fuel line.
Standard injector pockets would need a top
fuel rail to hold the injectors in, Boost will pop
them out, and viberation and bouncing will work
them loose anyway.
I wish I had found those injector pockets when
I butchered my manifold, I have and had (some fixed
and some didn't) vacuum leaks, even after welding
and trying to seal with epoxy putty, PITA don't get
any vacuum leaks, makes the trucklet idle funny and
the EFI don't like it either
Forge on
Wild
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Hey Wild,,,,,,,I Got the injectors the other day. Now Im just waiting for the MS to arrive and Ill have everything but a fuel pump and regulator :D. Hopefully I can get my bros torch and get the turbo manifold together this weekend. I want to get the injectors in and set up too. The only thing is,,,,,,Im not sure how to set it up free standing. I dont under stand why I don't use a fuel rail with them. How should I run the fuel lines? I thought I would still use a rail but it just didn't have to bolt down and hold the injectors in.
???
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I built a fuel rail, and if I were doing
it again I would use the same parts,
but I would do it a little different.
First you need a long piece of brass
1/8" pipe, you are going to solder the
joints so it has to be copper or brass
and clean, I used 3 or 4, 4" brass nipples
and it was a PITA to solder, if I were doing
it again I would solder first and drill out
the hole after, you will need a drill press
with a vice, a good selection of the right
size bits, go easy on the brass, it's soft
and drills too easy, the bits get jammed
sometimes. You will also need some brass
Ts, one for each injector, you will also need
some good fittings for the ends to hook up
the fuel supply and pressure regulator
Figure the spacing between intake runners,
I think it was 3-1/2" but check, also it depends
on where you put the injector bungs, in fact
do those first so you can adjust the Ts on the
brass pipe.
Drill the threads out of the Ts, so the pipe can
slide through, place the T's and put the whole
thing on a flat surface that won't burn when
you heat the assembly with a torch, solder each
T into place with good plumbing solder, make sure
you have good smooth solder joints and you won't
have any leaks.
The bungs need to be very close to the same angle,
if not purfect for a good seal on the injectors bottom
O-ring, now you can thread in barbed hose fittings
that will attach to each injector with a piece of high
pressure fuel hose.
This is the easiest low budget way I could come up
with to build a fuel rail, any other builders out there
can input also, as I'm all for cost effective ways of
solving problems like this.
Wild
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Doesn't sound too bad. Thanks for all your help bro!!!! I'll be taking pic's of everything I do so I can write up a sweet thread on how I do everything. Maybe If more people start Turbo'n Zuk trucks some one will put together a complete bolt on kit like they have for swifts. 8) Its a perfect fix for what a zuk lacks most, and on the cheap tip. ;D I have just about everything I need and Im only $530 into it.
That got me a mint T3, Intercooler, Steel for manifold, MS, Complete TBI w/harness and all sensors and manifold, AND injectors.
Sweeeet!!!!!Come oooooonnnn warm weather!!!
;D ;D ;D
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That would be nice to see a full write up of turbo.
Good luck.
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i was reading today about STS. i forgot what it stands for but its when you put the turbo inline with the exhaust(like near the muffler) insted of on the header. what about this? would it be easyer?
stu
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Apparently that works ,,,,,,,,BUT,,,,,,Its so stooooopid! Why run oil, coolant and air ducting all the way to the back of a ride, the exaust would cool off and wouldn't be as efficient, You'd have WAY more pipe on the boost side so you'd probably loose some pressure.
O'yea once you get that housing nice and hot and drive through a puddle its gona crack. Not to mention Mud, Ice, Salt and rocks are going to get all up on that $hit. I'd like to keep that kinda stuff as far away as I could. Thats why Im mounting mine up as high as I can and Ill probably fab a splash guard.
AND,,,,It seems like MORE work. I really don't get it.So they don't need a manifold? Cant see it under the hood? Putting it on a leased car? It doesn't make any sence every thing about it would be worse. I guess they put a pump on the return line or something b/c that oil isn't going back into the engine like that by itself.
The guys over on Teamswift Raz on it abit.http://www.teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?t=12769
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Only posting in here so it easier to find this tread again
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;) Still thinkin 'eh Mudchild?
-
;) Still thinkin 'eh Mudchild?
Defiantly going to put one on. I'm just doing some research before I get started. Like all the projects I do I like to have it all planed out before I even turn a wrench. I'm sure I'll be picking your brain along the way
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Planning thourghly is always a good thing.
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Does boost effect the modulator on the auto tranny in any way?
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Yes, it does. While under boost, the trans will shift at the preset engine governor limit ( 6200 rpm for my 95 16 v auto) rather than using a vacuum signal. ON boost = no vacuum, This can be changed by using an in-line vacuum bypass valve to the auto trans vacuum line.
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So I'm thinking something like a 0.050" orifice from the vacuum source then a tee on the modulator, and a check valve to atmosphere on the branch of the tee to vent any boost pressure?
Or is there a purchasable part that will do the trick?
What did you and Wild do?
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So I'm thinking something like a 0.050" orifice from the vacuum source then a tee on the modulator, and a check valve to atmosphere on the branch of the tee to vent any boost pressure?
Or is there a purchasable part that will do the trick?
What did you and Wild do?
I'm not sure what Wild did, he never mentioned it. Your idea sounds like it would work, and there is a one way vacuum valve that you can tee into the source, ( try NAPA or Auto zone) and it should only allow the trans to read vacuum. I haven't tried anything yet, just for lack of time. I pretty much just learned to drive around it by staying light on the skinny pedal unless I really needed the acceration. Got any pics of your setup?
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I don't have any recent pics yet. I'm in the middle of converting my 5 speed to an auto. (What a major PITA!) When she's complete I'll be sure to post. (Looking like 3 weeks or so).
My next big task is figuring out how I'm going to control the lockup with Megasquirt 1 v2.2 board MSNSE Code.
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Yeah, that torque converter lock can be a love/hate deal for sure. I'm glad I have it working to lower rpm a bit at highway speeds, but at certain rpms/speeds it's always "hunting" going back and forth between in and out. Gets to be quite annoying, I'm thinking of running it thru a manual switch, turn it on only when I want it.
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I tried a one way vacuum valve, didn't work.
The only problem I have had is under hard accel, if the tranny
drops to 1st from 2nd it goes into neutral until you back off the throttle.
I havent found a fix for this, but it hasent really been a problem.
Really you just need to blow off the boost to the trans, but still allow
it to see the vacuum at cruise, some messing around with one way
valves installed the right way should solve it, but just inline don't work
Wild
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did you guys know that there is a company that i have contacted about making a turbo kit for the 8v trackers/sidekicks, www.505performance.com contact them at sales|removethispart|@505performance.com. i asked them if they would build a kit because they have been building turbo kits for the jeep 4.0l for years, and they told me that if they had enough interest in the turbos, then they would build up a kit. please e-mail them and let them know that you are interrested and hopefully they will keep up their end of the bargain, thanks guys