ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Technical Discussion - Performance / Modify => Topic started by: zaggy on June 21, 2005, 08:57:25 AM
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Ok guys
  I posted under how much power to see who was interested in an engine build up, well I got 200 hits in 24 hours so I guess theres lots of guys interested so.....
  A little about me....I own my own new and used auto parts company that specializes in Import cars/trucks. I have been in the automotive business about 25 years and working on engines since I was a kid. Over the years I've raced in just about every form of 4 wheel sport except off road including..
- Road Race from 850cc sports cars to 5.0L GT cars
- Auto Slalom Solo 1 and 2
- Stock Cars from Mini Stock to late model
- Sprint Cars
- Drag Race from Cutlass 455 to 13 sec 240Z
- Rally
By the way I've always built my own engines
  I am also a pilot, got my first licence when I was 14 and I'm still going. Been experimenting with Suzuki engines since 1990 and the last one was the 5th in a series that is now residing on my airplane, soon to start flight testing. I've built 1.3/8v's, 1.3/16v's and the 1.6/8v's and done a pile of testing. If you want to view the work look at "pics of zaggy's engine" on the forum.
Zag
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Here's the rules I'm setting on the build up.....
1) I will post all the parts prices for what I sell them for,
  no games.
2) All machine work will be done and prices posted
3) I'm not going to mention the name of my company,
  if you want that you can pm me.
4) I will list where I get any parts that I out source, how
  much they cost and if the service was positive or
  negative. (politely I might add)
4) I will list all the tools and resources you will need and
  what I use
5) I will post as many pics as I can, as soon as I figure
  out how.
6) I will answer every question I can and explain
  everything to the best of my ability.
7) I will take every recommendation, suggestion you would like to give.
8) You are the final authority I am giving voluntary
  advice, refer to your manual or local mechanic for
  professional advice. I assume no liability for you
  following along.
     Now lets have some fun.......
The goal....
  We are going to build a 1.6/8v that should produce about 90hp. I'm going to do it as inexpensively as possible but I will not cut corners. This will take a while so keep following.
Zag
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The engine.......
- 1990 Chevy Tracker 1.6/8v
 This engine came out of a salvage vehicle, while it
 was lower mileage the fellow who owned it fancied
 himself a mechanic and incorrectly installed the oil
 pump and siezed the engine.
You will need:
- Something similar to start with, if you can find a runner
 it's better.
- A decent overhaul manual, I use Haynes
- Full set of metric hand tools, sockets wrenches etc.
- Good torque wrench
- Good set of feeler guages
- I recommend an engine stand even a cheap one.
- Decent work bench that is CLEAN.
- Lots of little cans and containers to label and keep
 parts in.
- Masking tape to label containers and parts.
- A place to wash parts in solevent (be enviromentally
 clean).
Now I need to finish getting the shop ready and order parts. I will post again later.
Zag
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Sweet! This sounds like a really kickass thread.
As far as posting pics, once you have them on your computer, go here (http://omghi2.us/upload/), upload and post :)
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and if for whatever reason that doesn't work for the pics, I can host them for you on my picturetrail account. Let me know, this sounds like an awesome build-up! ;D
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I thin once this thread is done it needs to be an article on ZW. That way it won't get lost in a board crash or something!!
Thanks for this Zaggy!
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(http://www.omghi2.us/april05/zw1.JPG)
(http://www.omghi2.us/april05/zw2.JPG)
(http://www.omghi2.us/april05/zw3.JPG)
- Top photo is my work area, notice clean neat and lots
of small containers to keep parts as they come off
- Middle photo is my tool box, again clean neat
organized
- Last but not least, our intended victim
The balance of tonight I will dissassemble the engine and start measuring, in spite of my lousy photo skills I will get some pics.
Zag
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Now everything is ready
- Get the engine on the stand, drain it and clean the livin
tar out of it. For initial clean up I like to use the
cheapest spray on oven cleaner I can find and the
shop pressure washer. Then scrub with a coarse brush
and repeat till it's good and clean. Follow the cleaners
safety directions.
- If you are re using the throttle body and sensors
remove them first and clean seperately.
- Tag or box everything with where you took it off and
follow your manual.
- Be sure you do all draining and clean up in an
enviromentally friendly way.
Zag
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Hmmm...I should get in on this...I have 2 1.6 8v's doing a whole lot of nothing right now...thanks Zag
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Morning all
  So the engine is on the stand, drained and clean. Tear down time.
  Using your manual as a guide remove the following and be sure to put the nuts and bolts from each in marked containers...
- Clutch press plate
- Clutch disc (mark the side facing the flywheel so you
 know how it goes.)
- Front pulley upper and lower. clutch fan
- Aluminum air intake on TBI unit
- Distributor and housing
- Intake and exhaust manifolds
- Valve cover and oil pan with pick up tube
- Plastic timimg belt cover
  Now I'm real serious about putting all the fasteners in marked containers, the reason is simple (especially if this is your first engine). It's so you know where they go when we start reassembly....I've built many engines but I still do this because I cannot remember everything.
  I also recommend making enough room so you can lay all the parts out as they come off. For the same reasons.
  Also, save all the parts even if you are not going to re use them, theya are great reference if you mark them as they come off. IE the clutch assembly, amrking the face so you know how to put it back on.
i didn't have to take off the Alternator or starter, you will follow the same pattern, then clean paint and set aside ready to reinstall.
  This afternoon we will remove the head, pics to follow.
Zag
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OK here we go with head removal....
  Following your manual remove the timing belt, tensioner and related items. Lay them out someplace safe so you know how to put it back together.
  Now undo the head bolts in the reverse pattern to the torque sequence. It may be an old wives tail but I have found when I do it this way the head needs less removed to get it square, maybe coincedence? Use a piece or cardboard to push the headbolts thru for storage and number them, don't loose any washers.
  Now tapping gentley with a rubber hammer work the head loosse. It that doesn't work, check you have taken out all the bolts, and keep working at it. If all else fails use your imagination, but don't damage the head!!!
  Once loose carefully lift it off and what you have should look like the picture.
(http://www.omghi2.us/april05/zw4.JPG)
Zag
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Good stuff. Now I'll have a guide when I tear apart the 8V that came out of the Kick :)
Zig
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  Now remove the manifolds, saving the nut/bolts in one of your containers and mark the container. Again gently tap them off with the rubber hammer. Remove your distributor and the mounting (use the containers again). Loosen all the rocker arm adjusters waaaay back and slide out the camshaft. Be careful, none of this requires huge force and you do not want to mark or damage anything. Wrap the cam in a shop rag and set it aside for later.
  Mark all the rockers using a metal marking pen, I number them with an "I" for intake and a # number for the cylinder they relate to. Remove the rocker shaft screws using THE PROPER SIZE PHILLIPS BIT with an impact driver. Again don't over do it, and save the screws in a marked container. It's now time to remove the rocker shafts. Slide them out carefully and layout the pieces, in order, as they come off. Once out carefully reassemble each shaft in order, wrap them in a shop rag and set them aside.
  I cannot stress enough how important it is to be organized with your tear down. By being careful now and marking and saving everything you get real familiar with the engine, don't loose anything and makes it much easier to put it back together. Be careful now and you will save time and money later.
  Now clean everything throughly, and I mean throughly, when you are done your head should look like the picture (or better, I was getting lazy as it was gettin late).
(http://www.omghi2.us/april05/zw5.JPG)
Zag
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Here I am going to apologize for the lousy photo's. I bought a digital camera to do this project so I'm learning as I go.
Zag
This afternoon the Short Block
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Here I am going to apologize for the lousy photo's. I bought a digital camera to do this project so I'm learning as I go.
Zag
Set it to auto? 8)
Cwkick
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Since I know way more about photography than engine building, here is what you need to help your pictures. Use the flash, (it may be turned off), or use a tripod for the lowlight situation you are in. :)
I am glad to be able to finally give to this forum, for I have taken much knowledge. Thanks everyone :D
Jeff
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Thanks for the tips guys I'll try them tonight
Zag
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OK Now you've got the head all apart lets check some stuff.
- Rockers, the face that meets the cam and the tip that
 contacts the valve should be nice and smooth, if there
 are any gouges, ridges or rough ness you need to get
 them replaced or find good ones. (new or used)
 (see pic for example of good one)
pic coming later
- Rocker shafts should also be smooth no gouges or
 wear. Same deal if they are damaged, replace them
 (see pic for example)
pic coming later
- We won't be reusing the cam, but if you are it should
 meet the same description as above.
- The cam bearing surfaces in the head should also
 appear smooth and nice, never seen one that didn't.
Now keep cleaning while I figure out how to get this camera to work.
Zag
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  So the head and it's parts are all cleaned up waiting for the machine shop....lets go to the short block
  We are going to start by marking everything...
- The main bearing caps are marked from the factory and
 even have little arrows so you know where they go
-  The rods have the nice little arrows but nothing else
 so using a small sharp punch and hammer we need to
mark the caps 1 thru 4 from the front of the engine.
Then a mark on the rod and the cap on the same side
so you know to match tem up....fool proof
(http://www.omghi2.us/april05/zw6.JPG)
- Now we measure the side clearance on the rods using
 a feeler guage
(http://www.omghi2.us/april05/zw7.JPG)
- And the same for the crank end play
(http://www.omghi2.us/april05/zw8.JPG)
-  Before removing the pistons and rods, plastiguage
 the bearings and record the clearances
-  Now check the cylinder bores for any appiciable ridge,
 if there is any it MUST be removed with a ridge reamer
 before trying to remove the pistons. Now Suzuki
 bores are really good and it is rare that there has
 been aridge I've needed to remove
-  Now following your manual remove the pistons and
 rods, Reassemble correctly as soon as they are out.
-  Now remove the rings and do a quick clean up on the
 pistons so we can check piston clearance.
-  Using a feeler guage check 3 or 4 places around the
 piston in the bore. Like the picture.
(http://www.omghi2.us/april05/zw9.JPG)
-  Now your can remove the caps and plastiguage the
 bearings to check clearances, record them and clean it
 up, Now remove the oil pump and finally remove the
 crank when done it shop be nice and clean, then  ÂÂ
 spray with WD40 or similar
(http://www.omghi2.us/april05/zw10.JPG)
-  All the surfaces should be nice and smooth no divots
 or lines. If there are any it's crank turning time.
- Now go back and look at the bearings, they should
 look like new (see mains on right) not scratched and
 scuffed (rod bearing on left)
(http://www.omghi2.us/april05/zw11.JPG)
Now you follow the manual and dissaaemble the rest, all the while saving all those nuts/bolts etc in the carefully marked containers.
  When done you should have a nice clean bare block with main caps, pistons and rods set aside and everything clearly labeled and clean.
  Now take you meassurements and compare against the clearances in the manual. This will determine if you need a rebore, crank turned etc, and give the machine shop a guide as to what specs they need to go to.
Next the parts list.
Zag
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So guys how about some feed back....
-  The pics are getting better
But what do you think? Any questions, comments, b**ches or gripes
Tonight I will put together the parts list and post it.
Zag
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Here we go with the parts list
  From all the measuring we have done I have determined what I already expected
1) Gotta rebore and square the top of the block
2) Gotta turn the crank
3) I always do the full meal deal on the head
  - Guides
  - Surface
  - 3 angle grind
  - Check spring heights and pressures
  Being lazy and not having all the tools I let my favorite
  machine shop do all the head work and check springs
  etc.
  - In addition we will take close to .030 off the head to
   get a little more snap on the c/ratio.
I'll post the machining bill when the goodies come back.
Now for NEW parts
- Pistons +.5mm             119.00
- Rings +.5mm               64.00
- Rod bearings +.25mm        32.00
- Mains +.25mm              41.00
- Thrust washers              8.50
- Oil pump (new)             119.00
- Full gasket set             170.00
- Timing belt                 22.00
- Timing belt tensioner         27.00
- Water pump (new)           44.50
Total                      647.00
  These are my regular prices across the counter to my customers. I almost always replace the pistons and oil pump, but quite honestly alot of people reuse both if they are within spec. But like I said I'm not taking any short cuts. All the parts are OEM quality or better.
  Now the machine shop I use is backed up by about a week so lets use this time to talk about porting, intake systems, ignition systems, camshafts, headers and other ways to hit our target horse power.
Zag
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Zag, this is going to be great for a lot of people. Keep it coming. ;D
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So guys how about some feed back....
-  The pics are getting better
But what do you think? Any questions, comments, b**ches or gripes
Tonight I will put together the parts list and post it.
Zag
I think you are doing very well, keep it up!  i've been following this ever sence it started, nice detail to everything.
stu
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So.....
  The engine is torn down, all your parts are cleaned, measured, labeled and laid out so you remember where everything is.
  The block, crank, pistons & rods and cylinder head are off to the machine shop and you are sitting back enjoying a cold one.
   Don't have the cold one till all the rest is done.
  Lets look at how we are going to get that extra 10hp
we are after.
  The first thing you MUST realize is an engine is no more or less than an air pump....period. The more air it can pump the more power it will make. The number of cams, pistons and everything else is irelavent.
        IT IS ALL ABOUT MOVING AIR
  The single biggest cork in the system on this engine is the exhaust (like most japanese engines). The stock exhaust manifold and exhaust system is way to small for the amount of air that this engine can move.
  On the engine itself a good header is ESSENTIAL and needs to be backed up by at least a 2" system. I prefer 2 1/4". For you guys in emmision land be sure to put a CAT in the system, dyno testing by many highly reguarded engine builders has shown that a properly sized CAT doen't cost any power.
  Visit the local Auto Dismantler and search for a CAT that has the same inlet and outlet as the exhaust system you will be using. Most wreckers keep CATS seperately and will let you sort through them. Expect to pay around $40.00 for a used one from adoemestic vehicle. Don't balk, in the business wreckers get about $20.00 apiece as cores from wholesalers and metal dealers.
  Match that with a good quality Turbo muffler from the
local Auto Parts store. Now put the system together yourself or visit your favorite Muffler Shop.
  Now what will you spend and gain....
- Header, depending on brand..................$200.00
- Used CAT.................................................$  40.00
- Turbo Muffler...........................................$  30.00
- Install at local shop.................................$ 150.00
- Total........................................................$420.00
  The real world gain on this change is going to be around 7hp.
  Now don't feel disappointed, that is a huge jump
and the best performance bang for the buck you will get.
  Put it into context...thats a 8.75% jump for only
  $48.00 per horse power. Less if you do the install
  yourself and get a Buddy to do the welding.
Later today we will talk about header selection....
Zag
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Header selection...
  First of all get a header that has properly shaped ports...believe it or not there are headers out there that have round ports to fit on the square prots of the head....this brings a whole new meaning to waste of time.
  Second, longer primaries are better for low end torque. (primaries are the first tube from the head down).
  Beyond that you are looking for quality. Good clean welds. At least a 1/4" manifold flange, smooth mandrel bent tubes.
  Fancy design, equal length, tri Y is all pretty redundant at this low level of tune...stick to the basics and you will do just fine. Good Quality and fit is what counts.
  Finish is a place to pay some attention. There is a place for ceramic and powder coating as they will make your header last longer.
  Now I have to go header shopping, any suggestions?
To this point I've only used Calmini's header...anybody have good luck with something else? And where did you get it...I'm in Northern Alberta, Canada not lots of selection here.
Zag
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Now lets look at the intake side....
When the head gets back we will port match and clean up the runner but I will go into detail when we get there.
Basically we will make sure that everything lines up and there are no obvious restrictions on the runners and ports.
Why???? Remember what we said, the ENGINE IS AN AIRPUMP, anything you do to let it more more air will produce more power. Simple isn't it.
But while we are waiting for the head lets work on the intake.
Clean it absolutely throughly inside and out, remove the throttle body and sensors before you start! When finished it should look like NEW!
Feel around the inside of the ports and runners for really rough edges and casting flash (the thin overhang like on plastic model kits). Anything that is rougher than about 60 grit sand paper or that blocks the flow of air is going to need corrected....mark them with a felt marker we will do some pics on how to fix them.
Clean all your sensors using a fuel injection safe cleaner and lots of patience..when done they should look like new.
Same with the throttle body...becareful of all the electric and don't mess with any adjustments, that opens a new can of worms.
When done all this stuff goes into our carefully marked containers.
It will be a bit to my next post, I've got real work to do and have to get set up to do pictures.
Till then I would really like some feed back...please.
Is the format working, is it good information, can everyone follow my explanitions.
QUESTIONS, COMMENTS...NEED INPUT!
Zag
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Zag,
Thanks for sharing your knowledge, I'm really interested in this thread so far.
The entent of my engine rebuilding experience has been just a re-ring and cylinder hone. Probably should have done more and been more careful but it was a chevy vega ::)
Anyway, for those of us who are newbies to this process, would you explain more about how to use plastigage?
Thanks,
Paul
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Plastiguage is a wonderful thing.
It is basically a calibrated plastic strip that comes in different readings, check you engine clearance specs before buying.
you break a piece off and place it lenght wise across the surface you are measuring. replace the bearing cap and torque it to spec. Now reverse the process remove the bearing cap and compare the width of the plastiguage to the chart on the package and you've got your clearance.
Thanks for the question
Zag
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Really good info, I should have done my motor in this way, but Money did not allow, i did this to my mustang, but i enjoy reading the post, Awsome information, and I am taking notes about getting more power out of my little motor. Which runs awsom after redoing the head.
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I have a 16v. The exhaust manifold looks very much like a tube header. Will replacing it with a Calmini header (only place I know that makes them for 16v) really gain me anything?
I feel rather stuck with the cat. My engine is OBD II and would be rather pissed without a cat.
The rest of the exhaust is a soda straw and needs to be upgraded anyway! (looking at Calmini once again as I can get their cat back cheaper than a shop will build me one.)
Cwkick
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Most anything will improve the stock system.
  I can't give an honest opinion on the stock header vs Calmini as I have not had them side by side, but the stock header in this case looks pretty good. I don't know what year your 16v is but on my wife's 92 4dr I went to a 2" front to back from the stockmanifold it wrks great. Noticable difference in scoot and bumped us from 34mpg hi way to 38mpg.
  What year is your 16v and is there an o2 sensor at the CAT?
  Also think of your engine as a system, have you done anything with the air intake side...better air filter, cold air box?
  I combined the exhaust mods with a K&N filter and a damn good tune up to get the above results.
  I measured the gas mileage before and after with 600km round trips (visited my sister).
Thanks for the question...got more info?
Zag
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It is a 1997 with the two O2 sensors. One on the exhaust manifold and one after the cat.
The down pipe and the cat are larger pipes and the cat back are much smaller.
Cwkick
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  Unless you want to get into fabbing a front pipe with bigger cat and o2 provision you are probly right in going with only the CAT back.
  But combine it with some breathing mods, like a good low restriction air filter, to get the most out of it.
  If these are the first mods to the engine I think you will be getting pretty good bang for the buck and most likely improving you gas mileage.
Thanks for the question and the info...
Zag
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Do you know if a snorkel, will work similar to a cold air intake?
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It all depends on the design...
Watch for these points
- Large diameter, at least what the air intake on the
engine is.
- Nice smooth bends, no 90 degree square cut corners,
The fewer the better
- Well sealed, no leaks
- Route away from the radiator, exhaust etc.
- Really good hi flow airfilter with lots of air intake space
If it fits this type of profile it should work similarly.
Thanks for the question
Zag
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This was my ideal, a piece of 2 1/2 inch pvs like many of the ppl here have used, a gentel slop from windshield pillar directly to the finder were is goes inside the engin compartment, now
on the motor side use a Highflow shortram style airfilter, inside a chabmer just a little biger then the filter but so that air is not restricted to all the surface of said filter, and sealed on both sides of filter all the way up tp the roof, were cap the pipe and cut a hole in the front so you don't get hydro lock when it rains
so you have a short ram with a snorkel attachet to it, and a ressonation chamber for the short ram, should give the intake growel and function for water cross ing it is connected to the stock intake tube above the exhoust pipe? i dont know how to change that aspect, but i could do heat reflective tape on the ressonation chamber, that would be closest part to the exhause, was also thinking of activly cooling the metal portion of the intake system. some coper heat sinks and some 12V 7,000 rpm fans? " computer fans 40 - 80 MM, should tak out all of the radiated heat from the motor.
any way
Zig what do ya think
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Do you know if a snorkel, will work similar to a cold air intake?
The Safari snorkel probably does give slightly cooler air to the motor but the Track/Kick has no intake heater anyway and the air is taken from outside of the engine bay. I have seen claims that there is a 'ram air' effect but in the case of the safari at least this is nonsense as the head has holes in it to drain the water out. I have never noticed any performance increase with mine, does keep the water out though  ;D.  Personally I wonder if the elbow that connects to the throttle body might be a bit restrictive. With a body lift there is room for a more gradual bend. I wish I had access to a dyno but I haven't found one locally.
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Mythose
Your system sounds good but because of the length it will probly not have much of a cold air effect. Be sure to give the air filter lots of room to breath, i would try to have a couple inches all the way around. As far as fans and heat sink, I would not bother, the amount you would gain is likely out weighed by the power drawn.
The place you will gain is on the actual air fliter, use a low restriction unit and give it room to breath.
This would match what Rhinoman was saying, the length of the system, with all the turns is going to zero out any cool air gain.
This is also different than the pre heat in the manifold. That heats the manifold and TBI to assist atomization (or so goes the theory), the benefit in cold air induction is that engines love cool clean air at the inlet.
Your comprimise is the lenght you need to have the snorkel operate effectively off road...so I'd do it for the off road benefit and go for the gains on the filter.
What you need to remember is AIR HATES turning, and really HATES sharp angles. The less you have to turn it and the smoother you can make the turns the more the engine likes it. (generally)
Thanks guys
Zag
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wonder if brought it in through the hood? instead of drilling a hole in the finder cut a slot in the hood up by the heater crowling? and just make it with no shar bends just a gradual twist.
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So I need a way to open and close the snorkel, so I can use it off road "as a snorkel" and have a short ram that breaths from out side the fender on road?
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but then if it leaks under water you are screwed.
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Form follows function...
  I think taking the off road function and the aviable power gains into account your first plan is the better one overall.....a good functional snorkel/safari set up is going to have more gains (with a good aircleaner like I described) overall than hacking up your hood and blocking your vision the other way. (besides I think the snorkel looks cool).
  Every engine application has compromise, here is an example where I would recommend letting the off road benefits win. But you can still get improvements with a good low restriction air filter set up.
Zag
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Rhinoman
A dyno is the most accurate but you can calculate the gains using 1/4 mile or 0-60mph times.
Moroso makes a slide rule type hp calculator that you can extrapolate from or there are some good computer programs (Dyno Jr for PC's). Now days there are also a bunch of dash mount computerized G meters that give pretty reliable info.
Zag
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I am going to go with the first thought of it and give about 1.5 inches all around the air filter, but I want a round filter that also draws from its sides and front, like a weponr
i used 4" stove pipeing for the intake on the acura, and wraped it in heat repelant tape, gota be carfull in the rain thoe!! its only sucking air about 5" off the road. through a 6" by 3.5" scoop mounted behind were the drivers side fog light should be. moved the battery and routed a prety straigh 4" round pip up to the stock intake tube with a wepon r air filter in side the tube then sealed it with a cupla pieces of plastic and hose clamps ;) sounds mean, but the guy buying it wants me to take it off :( says its not pratical ??? lol but he has cash , and I told him he could take it off. but that is not a zuk sorry for the ambiguous post.
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Thats sure the right idea for the street...too bad it would be a disaster off road.
Zag
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Come on water in the combustion chanber is a good thing :o
LOL hydro lock boom, time for a new motor.
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Come on water in the combustion chanber is a good thing :o
LOL hydro lock boom, time for a new motor.
My truck was 6 months old with 6000 miles on the clock when I hydo-locked it. Two bent rods and a bill from the Suzuki dealer for the equivalent of $2000 :'(
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Just a sidenote about fitting headers. On my 16v it meant losing the factory heatshield which means all that heat impacting on the air intake pipe above, not good. So spend some time making up a replacement heat shield to suit as it's worth the effort. Also for those with bodylifts remember to put a filler in btween the top of the radiator and the hood to stop the cool air going over the top of the radiator instead of through it.
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One question I have is how much clearance did you have from the top of the piston to the top of the deck? You are going to have the block decked and I was interested in what clearance there was.
Bill
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this is great! can't wait to do this to my engine. i am also going to rebuild a honda D16 out of a civic and then sell it. keep up the good work zaggy!
derek
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Morning
Brlj
On this engine I have not checked the piston to deck height as it is pretty stock. Yes the block will be decked the minimum required to square it and the head shaved
.030" less what ever is taked off the block to square everything up and get close to the target 9:1 cr.
On the engine in my aircraft the block was decked to
"0" piston to deck clearance and the head shaved .020" to get the same result. The reason I did it that way on the aircraft was it was originally destined for an airboat and I expected overheating problems in testing (didn't happen) and I wanted to leave some extra meat if I needed to resurface to head due to overheating.
Thanks for the questions...
Zag
-
While we are waiting for parts it's time to talk camshafts....
I feel the camshaft is like the brain of the engine. It tells the engine where it will make power and to a large extent how much power it will make.
The stock camshaft is a compromise picked for economy, over all driveabiltiy and emissions.
For the targets we are reaching for I feel that any of the torquer grind cams would work well to hit our 90hp target and keep the power smooth and a rpm level that makes sense for off roading....what you do not want is a cam with lots more duration. Duration is the time the valves are open. More duration moves the power band up and makes it peakier
Stock duration is 200 degrees if I remember correctly and the camshaft in the airplane is 228 degrees...I think it would be a little much for the average off roader as it idlles quite lopey and doesn't start to make power till about 3500rpm.
Lift also plays an important role more is generally merrier, limited by the cam profile (can't open and shut them too quick).
Finding the right combination of duration and lift gets real tricky as you start to reach for bigger power levels, but at our level and with the goals in mind a torquer cam is a safe bet.
For this engine I'm going to try a 226 duration and .395 lift cam that I can get locally.
Any body else out there have good or bad cam experiences with Suzuki's to pass on?
Zag
-
Zag,
I agree about the cam being the "brain", but there is also the ECM to consider ...
Not sure how far away from "westers" you are (tilley, AB), but would be awesome if you could team up your build recipie with a "westers tune". I got one for my tow rig and combined with just exhaust and an intake, really woke up my 6.0l.
http://westers_garage.eidnet.org/
-
Oh ... one more thing ... on the 8v ... throttle vlave spacer or not ??? inquiring minds wanna know.
-
Hi Sno_falls
I'm familiar with Westers but haven't seen any import product from them. For our level of target power I think that ECM changes are not in order, if I was keeping the ECM and going another step (90-100hp) it would sure be worth investigating.
The throttle valve spacer spaver is one I'm still investigating so I can't give you an honest answer. I do know with the 2bbl stock car racing class I used to run in they made a big difference, we never dyno'd the spacer but lap times on a 3/8 clay oval dropped hen we installed a 2" spacer and tuned for it.
The spacer should work on the Suzuki as well, but I have not had a chance to try it. Typically the spacer increases the plenum volume and velocity allowing more fuel to enter the combustion chamber thus creating more power. Past experience also shows (with the stock car) that you gained torque. We could pull better out of the corners with the spacer.
Good question, I hope the info I gave helped, it would be great to do a back to back test.
Zag
-
Lets talk horsepower claims
  I was just on another Suzuki board and almost laughed but had to shake my head.
  Some poor newbie had been reading all the info on the various advertiser web sites and taking all the percentage power claims at face value figured he could bolt on a header with stock exhaust, do the cool airfilter, add a torquer cam and his 100,000 mile 1.6/8v would be transformed into a 110-115hp engine.
  Now guys I'm not going to name the manufactures that he quoted but lets get serious.
- Good manufacturers make honest claims, others go
 crazy.
- Minimal mods, means minimal gains
- There are no free rides
Remember the engine is an air pump.....to make more power you have to move more air.
  The numbers I'm using on this project are realistic numbers with real world gains.
Look at what is took to get my other engine to 113-4 hp reliably.
- Full rebuild, +.030 overbore
- Full porting and polishing on the cylinder head, ports
 matched
- Custom 5 angle valve grind
- Head machined
- Block surfaced
- Balanced, blueprinted
- Beefed oil system
- Best level of components
- Plus a whole level of additional internal mods
- Full custom intake system from head out, Twin carb
- 228/415 camshaft
- Calmini header, modified furthur
- Dual crank fired ignition
Thats alot more than bolting on a header, stuffing in a cam and putting a cool aircleaner on.
  Our little 90hp project here is realistic and the goal of keeping the power where 4X4's can use it attainable.
Zag  ÂÂ
-
if I was keeping the ECM
What do you mean if? Did I miss something?
FI is a bonus offroad ... no way I'd go with a carb ...
I'm going to rebuild my engine this winter, so I'm following along with interest ...
-
Sno_falls
I agree in this day and age street driven vehicles need to keep their FI to stay legal, so going past what this build up is intended to do you would have to find ways to reprogram (I'm checking in to having custom ECU's built right now)...no agruement.
But for strictly off road use at the higher power levels carb's have their place too....
If I was going all out for max power (150-160hp) I would pitch the FI and go to Weber DCOE's, but that would not be a street driven vehicles.
Every engine is a series of compromises,EFI and Carb's both have their place depending on the application and what you are willing to live with.
Good point to bring up though
Zag
-
Lets talk port matching and clean up...
When I get my heads back I always get them dissassembled as I want to do the assembly. If you plan on getting your head returned assembled you should do this before it goes to the machine shop.
Place a Good intake gasket on the head and look how it matches up. Suzuki's tend to be good here so you will not see alot of difference between the gasket and the head. Simply mark the intake gasket outline on the head
(http://www.omghi2.us/april05/zx9.JPG)
CAREFULLY file (by hand if you haven't done this before) material away till you meet the line. Gently blend back about an inch while you are doing this. Be very careful and very patient. It does not need to be mirror smooth, just match the surface around it.
NOW CLEAN EVERYTHING THROUGHLY (I say that alot don't I)
Now move to the intake, repeat the process. You will notice it generally doesn't match up as well.
(http://www.omghi2.us/april05/zw10a.JPG)
You will also notice a lump on some intakes on the number 3 (from the front) runner, be veryyyyy careful here, it is a flow restriction but on some (not all) manifolds it can be a break thru point, examine before starting to file.
(http://www.omghi2.us/april05/zw11a.JPG)
Now again carefully file to match, you can be just a titch smaller on the intake side if you are not confident on a perfect match.
The intake manifold runners can also stand a little attention. If you look down the port in the picture you will see a black felt marker line that indicates where the 2 manifold 1/2's meet. If this is much more pronouced than the surrounding runner you should carefully sand of fille this down till it's about the same as the surface around it.
(http://www.omghi2.us/april05/zw12a.JPG)
Yes when you are done...Clean everything throughly.
I will admitt that this seems like alot of careful tedious time consuming work for what looks like not alot
of gain. But on small engines like the Suzuki every little bit helps. Besides this is you labor and costs nothing if you are careful...the cheapest additional power you can get.
We also need to remember that earlier expression...
The engine is an airpump...the more air it can move the more power it can make, and this helps move a little more air.
Also remember your engine is a system, this mod is part of the overall system and when combined with everything else plays a role in increasing the hp.
Take your time, be cautious and careful and have fun
you are becoming an engine builder, rather than an assembler.
When done, have a cold one!
Zag
-
PLEASE KEEP THE QUESTIONS AND COMMENTS COMING!
I don't know everything but I am passing along what I do. You guys have come up with some great questions and comments.
By the way if you think I'm wrong say so and why. I'm always willing to learn and it appears everyone else is too....
Thanks Zag
-
Machining
  My parts just got back from the machine shop, lets look at the bill...
-  Supply/install guides            115.00
-  Surface to spec                 45.00
-  Grind valves/3angle             115.00
-  Deck block to spec              115.00
-  Bore and fit pistons             110.00
-  Install pistons                   30.00
-  Resize rods                    60.00
Total                          590.00
Now our parts for the longblock were        647.00
Machining the longblock                   590.00
Custom camshaft                        199.00
Now if you don't have a bunch of goodies
built up like I do (paint, assembly, lube,
plastiguage, etc.) you've probly spent 50.00
Total long block to date                   1486.00
It's time to assemble...starting tonight
Zag
-
dude, this is a cool thread.  i have heard people talk about doing write ups like this but it never gets done.  this is sweet, and going into the favorites folder.
stu
-
OK while you're waiting for me to get off work and start assembling you need to do some work.
- Dry assemble the crank in the block and plastiguage
to check clearances
- Dry check thrust clearance
- Install rods and plastiguage to check clearances
In short re-check all the clearances we checked as we were taking it apart.
Go over all the parts you have cleaned, painted and sorted, make sure they are ready to go back together.
A short note on painting colors......
It's all a matter of personal taste, but....
I prefer light colors overall, makes it easier to spot leaks and the engine bay isn't such a dark hole when you are trying to work on it.
This engine will be Yellow block and head, Black pan and valve cover. Cleaned up aluminum intake and I haven't bought a header yet so I don't know what color there. Should look cool and be easy to work on.
The one clearance we have not talked about is piston ring end gap, but we will cover that as we assemble the engine and I can take some pics.
Zag
-
Sno_falls
  I agree in this day and age street driven vehicles need to keep their FI to stay legal, so going past what this build up is intended to do you would have to find ways to reprogram (I'm checking in to having custom ECU's built right now)...no agruement.
  But for strictly off road use at the higher power levels carb's have their place too....
  If I was going all out for max power (150-160hp) I would pitch the FI and go to Weber DCOE's, but that would not be a street driven vehicles.
  Every engine is a series of compromises,EFI and Carb's both have their place depending on the application and what you are willing to live with.
Good point to bring up though
Zag
zag,
Keeping the EFI isnt to stay legal, it's that it will function at wierd angles. A carb bowl may run outta fuel when it's pitched sideways 45 degrees (or rearward 80 degrees). When you have your rig in those sorta angles you don't wanna hear a cough/sputter!
-
I agree that the FI has it's advantages. I can't ever imagine wanting to be in any ground bound vehicle at those angles.
By the way though, my airplane banks at over 60 degrees and climbs out at some preety vicious angles and I don't have any carb problems.
This is one of those wonderful cases where I think we are both right FI and carbs have their place.
You point out some good advantages though.
Thanks
Zag
-
Watch the Moab videos :o, would suck to sputer and fall off the edge or start rolling backwards.
-
That where the 4X4 experience you guys have greatly outweighs mine.
Remember what I keep saying "every engine is a compromise". I can't imagine those angles on the ground.
But your experience here makes your choices different than mine.
Good points and comments though
Zag
-
Alright Gang
  We have all our parts back, everything is cleaned, checked, catolouged and painted ready to assemble.
  You work diligently last night like I did and re-checked all your clearances dry and it all turned out
            "on the money"
  You still have to check ring end gap, but we will have those pics this afternoon.
  So start assembling, reverse all the previous proceedures and follow your manual.
          "Key points to remember"
- Be careful, don't rush...more mistakes happen when
 you rush and don't double check.
-  Soak everything liberally in pre-lube, smokes like
 crazy when you start up but who cares, it protects all
 your hard work.
-  Soak the piston, ring, rod assemblies in oil before you
 install, I leave them in a can of oil about 10 min.
- Torque wrench on everything and be exact.
  You're almost there, just think a little more work and you will have built your first custom engine.
  This afternoon...checking those ring end gaps
Zag
-
I've never had my rig too extreme for long periods (30 roll, 50 pitch) but I've seen samurais starve out at those angles (I think with the stock carb and perhpas the weber is better?).
It isn't just the carb either. oil pickup can be an issue. Every full aerobatic aircraft I've seen had EFI and usually some external oil tank (with revolving pickup). Thankfully 4x4 rigs won't need to be running when they are inverted :)
-
Actually
Until recently most aerobatic aircraft were carburated. You are right though in that virtually all serious aerobats have a dry sump oil system.
That said I'll repeat what I said on the IFS thread...
" I've done 9 sec in a drag car, 185mph road racing, seen the dark side of 50,000 feet and had the privledge of back seat over the speed of sound. Done all kinds of aerobatics.....but after looking at the videos Mythose and you recommended...You guys are nuts , those angles scared **** outta me"
I bow to your experience on this one
Thanks
Zag
-
I am also a fan of EFI, but I will also say that the stock zuk carb setup is really good (at least on my rig).
I have been on the same steep obstacles in Moab, where sometimes only your front or rear tires have any weight on them and the stock carb has not missed a beat.
If I didn't know better by looking under the hood I would have thought it was FI.
-
zag et al ...
didn't mean for the carb vs efi to hijak ... :P
This is an awesome thread!!! and probably should offline the fuel delivery discussion.
-
Snofalls
I don't think anyone has hijacked this thread. This is the kind of discussion I was hoping we would get so that all possible information could be out there for people that are interested. Besides I don't know everything as I admitted after watching those videos.
My goal here is to show to the best of my ability a real world/real cost engine build and how to get a little more performance at a tolerable cost and get info out there on other options.
I want to thank everyone that has contributed to this thread and the onformation they have provided.
Open frank discussion is a great teacher, **** even I have learned something new and my wife thought that was impossible.
Keep it coming
Thanks
Zag
-
More pics ;D
-
Ok while we are waiting for me to get off my duff and take some pictures lets review.
- We have gone through a complete tear down of your
run of the mill 1.6/8v, with all the tips I have to offer
to make it easy.
- We have covered measuring and inspection
- We have ordered and gotten our parts based on our
measuring.
- Hard parts have gone out and been machined to spec.
- We have matched and cleaned up the ports.
Short of installing the pistons (cause I haven't taken the pics for ring end gap yet) you have custom built a pretty bullet proof Suzuki 1.6/8v.
The little engine you and I have built should go just as long as a factory engine plus have a titch more power from the increased compression/port matching, clean up and is superior to a production line overhaul because all parts are hand fitted and matched, no short cuts.
For more power we have discussed....
- On vehicle exhaust design and selection.
- Header selection for our application.
- Air Filter improvements.
- Camshaft selection.
- Improved the intake.
So whats left...........Ignition system
For our level of build up there is not alot to do to make any big gains, but there is a lot to do wrong
1) Get good plug wires, not cheap crap (I like NGK wires)
2) Get good plugs, not generic junk
(Again I vote for NGK)
3) Set everything to factory spec then power tune it.
(Set timing by driving)
- The only place where you can make some minor
improvement here is on the coil.
The more spark the better. There are some good aftermarket coils out there, but I prefer a stock GM HEI coil from any of the remote applications (S-10 etc.). Loads of spark, cheap to buy.
So what have we spent.....
- Parts for rebuild 647.00
- Machining 590.00
- Performance cam 199.00
- Header* 179.00 est (*haven't bought yet)
- K&N Cone airfilter 50.00
- GM HEI coil 15.00 (used)
- Shop supplies 50.00 (plastiguage, paint etc)
Total (engine only) 1730.00
- On vehicle exhaust 200.00
Total project 1930.00
Now I haven't counted tune up stuff etc as I feel it is regular maintaince.
Now what have we got....
- A great little engine that will last like a new one.
- Some real world power gains ie:
Stock horse power 80hp
c/r increase, port work 2hp
Header and exhaust improvements 7hp
Airfilter and intake improvements 2hp
Camshaft 3hp
Total hp, inc improvements (est.) 94hp
Now bear in mind individual improvements will not deliver the same results, if you do the exhaust but not the intake you will not get as much of a gain.
Remember....Think of the engine as a system
So now it's your turn....was this build up a good deal?
- A freshly rebuilt custom engine
- 17.5% more horsepower
- Call it $2000.00 inc the on vehicle exhaust
Has the information you've gotten been helpful?
What did I miss?
What do you think I did wrong?
PLEASE...questions, comments, feed back
Thanks
Zag
-
Very good thread. Great read, and I actually learned something on the internet! :P
Still waiting on pics, though ;D
-
Has the information you've gotten been helpful?
Oh yea! ... my only critisism would be your pics suc ;D ... but is a great guide for an engine buildup.
What did I miss?
Well, I'd like to see some dyno ...
What do you think I did wrong?
Nothing I can see. Perhaps tips on how to "cut the budget". Or, more where someone can save some buks (aka is the shave necessary? Or can I do without XYZ and still get a good hp boost without all the machine shop charges. I don't think any of the work you did was "wrong" just where and where not to penny pinch. You didn't bore either?
PLEASE...questions, comments, feed back
So far, this has been "general" engine workup to me (others may get more ...).
I'd say I really want that next step of ...
what cam?
which header? (or does it really matter)
when porting is there curves that should be addressed? (or is it just too thin to play with)
What's a good TBI spacer do? Good, bad, nothing?
Are their performance gains from better fuel delivery? (aka bigger injectors for the TBI? wildgoody?)
Not trying to be a PITA, but you asked ;D
-
Ring end gap...are you ready?
This is the gap we want to measure when the ring is in the bore
(http://www.omghi2.us/april05/zw1p.JPG)
First we put the ring in the bore....
(http://www.omghi2.us/april05/zw2p.JPG)
Then square it with a piston....
(http://www.omghi2.us/april05/zw3p.JPG)
Now measure with a feeler guage, check the manual for the exact end gap measurement...
(http://www.omghi2.us/april05/zw4p.JPG)
Repeat 2-3 times in the top 80mm of the bore...
Repeat with all the rings in all the bores...
Now finish installing the pistons and buttoning the engine up....
PS....
Sorry about having to use a dummy block, but I got carried away did all the measuring and installed the pistons before I remembered to take pictures, thats what took so long was to find enough parts around the shop to duplicate the proceedure.
Thanks
Zag
-
One thing Zaggy you did not cover the alignment of the Rings ;) you need to make sure the gap is not aligned, most motors its is 180 out from each other, otherwise you get a big compression leak.
how do you usualy align the rings?
-
could you run a MSD 6(A or AL, don't care about rev-limiter) ignition with this set up?  just give me some thoughts about extra power, ect..
is there anything else you would recommend to do to the engine you havn't already touched on?
are you going to show use how to properly break in the engine?
stu
-
  So now you have all the information to do it yerself and wind up with a 90-94hp custom built engine....
Well heres the one I built while we were playing away...
(http://www.omghi2.us/april05/zw6p.JPG)
The guy in the picture is my right hand man Mike...
  So whats wrong with this picture
1) No intake, exhaust or ignition installed
2) Sammi valve cover
3) Metro oil pan stuck on
4) Haven't finished installing the pulleys etc.
5) Painted spark plugs and sending units
Heres why.....
  I got so excited about doing this project I didn't realize I didn't have anything to put it in (ooopppsss)....
1) I haven't bought the header yet and don't know
  what I'm putting it in so I left the intake off
2) Valve cover.....I like the Sammi one better and had
  one so I used it.
3) Oil pan.....don't know what I'm putting it in so stuck a
  Metro one on with no pick up to store it ÂÂ
4) Haven't put on the pulley's and stuff till I find
  something to put it in.
5) Spark plugs and sending units are junk ones stuck in
  to keep the paint from getting in the threads.
  So basically we are done the engine....and I would like your input like I asked for earlier.
  I'm going to take a short break and then review your comments and questions, answer what I can and decide what to do next.
Zag
-
Mythose
Thanks for catching me on the ring alignment, I forgot to mention it, but you did a fine job of doing it for me cause thats exactly how I do it.
1bigtracker
I personally don't think at this level of tune theres much if anything to gain by going to one of the MSD or similar systems, some folks may rightly differ with me, but I think at this level of mod the ignition system I outlined will more than do the job...save your money for stage2.
Excellent questions and points guys, Mythose...thanks for catching my omission...
Thanks everyone....Please keep the comments coming so I can do a follow up.
Zag
-
so your building a rig for the engine now right ;D
stu
-
Mmmmm.......what else do we need to cover? ??? How about we start to look at a 16v with some high compression pistons (Honda pistons, D15 or D16 maybe) or maybe we resleeve for a big bore (78mm Miata pistons) ;D
-
Hey Snofalls
  To cover some of your questions and points...
1) Pics suck....hey the last ones were better, I'm finally
  figuring it out.
2) Dyno time is tooooo expensive right now, **** I
  shouldn't have built the engine, but I got excited.
3) Tips to cut cost...I tried to show a realistic build with
  the engine I had, but I will do a post on a best case
  senairio.
4) Boring, sure we did .5mm over, the boring cost is in
  there.
5) The cam is one I get from a local grinder, I'm his
  guniea pig...cost is 199.00, 226 duration/.395 lift, I'll
  let you know how it works.
6) Header? Don't know what it's going in cause I got
  ahead of myself but they will all perform about the
  same at this level as long as they meet the ÂÂ
  requirements of my earlier notes.
7) Porting, I didn't want to go too far on this engine as
  it wasn't needed to hit the power target and should
  really be a thread of it's own.
8) Spacer for TBI, I covered this as well as I could till I
  get a chance to do some real world testing, I'm sure
  it will help but I don't know how much.
9) Fuel delivery and other....you bet this is all neat stuff
  that I hope we can get to on a stage 2 project, but
  for now I have to lick my wounds as I shouldn't have
  built this one...I'm temporaily cash deficent now.
10) PITA...I don't think so, you've brought up a bunch of
   great stuff that we should follow up on later,
   besides there's no such thing as a bad question.
   Like Myhtose I apprecaite you're keeping me
   honest, I never would have realized the FI
   advantage for xtrme off road and rock crawling
   if I hadn't listened and then watched the MOAB
   videos.
Keep the questions and comments coming....
Thanks
Zag
-
Zag,
Thanks for all the great info. Now I have a down to earth guide as I tear mine apart instead of just reading the FSM ;D I'm sure I will have plenty of questions and comments as I go through mine (when ever I get some time)
Later,
Zig
-
Morning all
  A few guys have asked about where you could cut corners on the "do it yerself engine build". It really depends on how your engine measures out.
  There was really no way for me to skip anything because I started with a really shot engine, but if you are starting with a well worn good runner here are a few places you may not have to spend money.
- Reboring, if your engine is in spec you can
 Save some here    re use pistons............119.00
                     don't bore block.........110.00
- If your oil pressure was good before hand
 and your pump measures out ok
                  no oil pump...............119.00
- If it was a good runner, no knocks etc and
 measures ok        no resize on rods......  60.00
- Camshaft, still keeping a torquer cam I have
 seen them as low as $99.00 as a regrind....100.00
-  Exhaust, a good srounger could save up to..100.00
Total possible savings.......................$608.00
  The parts I sell are top quality and I give a really
good deal so I don't think there is anything to save there unless you sacrifice quality.
  The rest of the machine work I consider a must and the shop I use gives pretty darn good deals.
  That said, if you're a good scrounger, you go for a reground performance cam and start with a real good engine you could cut cost from
- around $2000.00
    down to
- around $1400.00
  But be super careful with your measuring.....
           ÂÂ
              AND
  "Budget for the worst and hope to get the Best"
Thanks
Zag
-
Words from the wise, budget for the worst hope for the best,
and always have fun. and be safe.
PS, next I think you should build a 4WIS,4WS trail rig, out of 2 old track - kicks. if they come in salvage? you coule always cut the backs off and tube it up like WildWeasel, other then that, a little fab work, some good old injanuity "which you should have to build an airplane"
, maby a photography class ;D ;D
and the cost of a good welder, "new clutch" some used 31" tires, "or just stock wheels, welder rods, probably take you a few weeks, and bout 2grand, but it would be ONE OF A KIND.
This is a good thread thoe reallly good.
-
So............
  Prd|removethispart|@BCdn has offered me a Parts kick thats rusted out and I have taken him up on his graious offer.......
From an engine stand point heres what I'm thinking:
- Get it road worthy and install this engine on the TBI
 with everything described in the build up.
- Get 0-60 times to prove the hp beyond the shadow of
 any doubt and set some base lines. (I already know
the answer but it's nice to prove it)
Then......
- Air Intake mods with results posted
 (eliminate that aluminium intake tube, good aircleaner
  system beyond just the cone that I know will
  work...as you can see I think Rhinoman is right that it
  may be a restriction.)
Then......
- Effects of TBI spacers 1"-2"-3", with results posted
Then......
- Computer mods, chip, reprograming with results
 posted ( I have a friend that wants to try it)
Then......
- Dual Stromberg carb set up, results posted
Last.......
- Multi port injection system, hand built, results posted
What do you guys think?
Zag
-
I got one more ...
What about the "emissions" crud ... specifically the EGR. I haven't studied the usage on this engine, but curious if some gain can be achieved by ditching some of that.
May need to be a reversable mod in order for some folks to pass, but even without the crud I'd bet it would still be clean.
-
Sounds good to me, the next steps are things i would like to consider on my rig, now that the tire size is going up, and its going to start looking like a trail rig,
I am one to go and push it to the limits.
-
Snofalls
My experience has been at low levels of mod (like this engine) there is no advantage to defeating the emissions, as a matter of fact oftem it can cause problems.
When you go a step or two farther I tend to eliminate it as a matter of simplicity. Up here emissions regs are still pretty loose and you can get away with a lot...but I'm sure that will change.
I also think you're right that any well built engine is going to run pretty darn clean.....
When we were drag racing the triple weber 240Z years ago they had a portable emission rig set up at Motor vehicles as a demo...for a laugh we took our full tilt race car (could not be street driven) down and tried it out...the techs thought we would bomb, but on steady state testing we passed all the standards for the stock car....but when you cracked the throttle that was another story.
Zag
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Looks like we've covered most everything on this build I've found a base (thanks PRD2BCDN) for the test engine and by fall I hope to be running a series of performance tests that I hope to report back on.
There you go we did it, should have a little over 90 hp
on a reasonable budget....
Zag
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ok now for a little help from Eric, would you please make this sticky or build a FAQ to place this in so we know where it is. ;)
thanks, stu
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ok now for a little help from Eric,  would you please make this sticky or build a FAQ to place this in so we know where it is. ;)
thanks, stu
or take all the info and pics, and rewrite it into an article.
:D
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I like both ideas... just so this thread doesn't fall into oblivion with all this kickass info...
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I don't mind if Eric does something like that. I did the build up to give everyone some good basic info and give back to the Zuk community seeing as you guys helped me solve my engine glitch...
Zag
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Next project now underway...................
Project RallyKick
Home for the engine and test bed.
Zag
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Everyones comments please!
How useful did everyone find this build up?
What suggestions would you have if I was to do it again?
Should we do it again when I have time/money?
Thanks
Zag
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How useful did everyone find this build up?
I found it very informative and intend to follow it to an extent when the time comes to rebuild one of my 8valve's!
What suggestions would you have if I was to do it again?
You do it to one of MY 8 valve engines for me! LOL!
Should we do it again when I have time/money?
Sure, just let me know when you have the time and money and I'll get my engine up to ya! LOL!!! ;D ;D ;D
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No comments?
Well other than Digger wanting me to build him an engine!
I was thinking of doing it again this fall/winter using a 1.6/16v but it's not looking like there is any interest.
Come on thoughts...comments...good or bad.
Zag
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Zag, I think it's a great idea. Definately do it. These sorts of posts remain useful into the future for others who may not even have a Kick yet. The more detail and pics the better, kinda like holding someones hand who has never done it before and walking them through the process. It's the little things and why that you do as second nature that can be quite important to an easy build that the average joe may not think of doing that can be very useful. Also point out as you go along any options that could be done at the time while it's apart and more cost effective or left out if not absolutely necessary to save $$$. Are you looking at any mods for the 16v while it's apart?
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Hi CJ
I'm thinking when the time comes to do a different build going for real low rpm power with a big torque boost under 4000rpm. I've been around you folks long enough now that I understand while I may like the high revvin stuff, big torque is more useful for most of the 4X4 crowd.
I've been kickin a couple of thoughts around with "Wild" on and off so maybe a stroker with the right cam and velocity increasing port work or a mildly boosted engine that gets full boost before 3500rpm with a killer torquer camshaft.
From most of the stuff I've seen the average 4x4 guy could use 20% more torque |removethispart|@ 2000-3000 more than he could use 30% more horsepower at 6500rpm
Thanks for you thoughts and reply
Zag
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   I'm thinking when the time comes to do a different build going for real low rpm power with a big torque boost under 4000rpm. I've been around you folks long enough now that I understand while I may like the high revvin stuff, big torque is more useful for most of the 4X4 crowd.
   I've been kickin a couple of thoughts around with "Wild" on and off so maybe a stroker with the right cam and velocity increasing port work or a mildly boosted engine that gets full boost before 3500rpm with a killer torquer camshaft.
   From most of the stuff I've seen the average 4x4 guy could use 20% more torque |removethispart|@ 2000-3000 more than he could use 30% more horsepower at 6500rpm
Thanks for you thoughts and reply
Zag
now thats what we're talking about. more torque is the go. i would be interested in this. and i'd like to thank you Zag, for this thread and all the tech you bring with it, because where i am, theres not many people who would be interested in owning a vitara, let alone doing anything in these threads. so i say keep them all coming, whatever you build, as it will be useful to more people than you might know.
i dont think there are any rules about linking threads from here to another forum, but i have been doing that. if there are any rules about it, let me know please. i have been working on a "Vitara Bible" on an aussie forum, and i have several links from here in the 'bible'. i have been slack lately, as most of the old links dont work anymore, and i have to find them all again. take a look if you like.
http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modules/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=48779&sid=8a401a78af5e17d9575fb2e5de3d85ca
once again, thank you Zag, and keep up the great work.
Cheers
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If we get a few more comments like these I'll get serious about a fall build up.
SiKid_01 and everyone in general
   Surprisingly building low rpm torque is tougher than building high rpm horsepower, but it can be done reasonably (I think).
   Big horsepower is a matter of more air at higher rpm...the big rpm makes it easier to do.
   Low rpm torque is tougher as you have to accomplish the same goals with out the benefit of rpm. Intake velocities and exhaust velocities need to be higher for a given rpm....camshaft need less duration (to reduce peak rpm) and greater lift (to increase cylinder filling) and that can make for some interesting valve train problems.
   Intake and exhaust design is different because you not only need to reduce restriction, you have to also increase velocity to get the mixture in and out at the lower rpm.
   It can be done but from what I have seen there is little to nothing off the shelf to make it easy.
   I think to make this build worthwhile we would need to go deeper into the theory and the how to build the parts.
What do you guys think?
Zag
  ÂÂ
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Starting to sound good. Getting deeper into the theory and the how to is what I'd like to know more about.
THere are a couple of places that have done work with the cam for the G16B but one of the issues with it is the variable rocker ratio and there are physical limits on what lift can be had with the cam.
I know you're talking about a stroker but I wonder about the Rod Ratio. I'd like to discuss the pros and cons of say a 78mm big bore instead. A low boost turbo would be interesting to look at too.
Here's our starting point
(http://photos.zuwharrie.com/users/cj/G16B_Graph.jpg)
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D'OH Metric
95hp |removethispart|@ 5600rpm
98ft/lb|removethispart|@ 4200rpm
AHHHHH
Thats more like it....
Zag
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OK, so lets have a look at a couple things. The G16 (1590cc) has a bore of 75mm and a stroke of 90mm and a rod length of 139.5mm. The consensus seems to be that an ideal rod ratio would be in the vacinity of 1.65 to 1.8 and 1.5 is the lowest that you would look at for a general motor. The G16 has a rod ratio of 1.55 (139.5/90) so it's pretty close to the limits. At a ratio of 1.5 using the stock length rods you would have a stroke of 93mm. So, 75mm bore and 93mm stroke would give a new capacity of 1644cc, an increase of 54cc.
My thoughts are that with a 78mm bore (Miata pistons and sleeves) and stock stroke the rod ratio gets no worse and you have new capacity of 1720cc which is an increase of 130cc. Of course you could always do both so you would have 78mm x 93mm giving a new capacity of 1778cc which is starting to get up there. While we're at it as have a nice alloy head we could lift the compression ratio from 9.5:1 to say 10.5:1 which would give a nice boost. We could also lift the comp. ratio while keeping the stock bore by using Honda D15/D16 pistons (same bore and piston pin dia.) as they use G16 pistons to lower their comp. ratio for use with turbos.
What sort of stroke and compression ratio were you thinking of if keep it NA? As to the turbo side of things what sort of comp. ratio and boost pressure did you have in mind? I love this topic as it's making me think and learn more about options on how to build an engine.
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Man CJ
   This is the homework I hadn't got to yet............but off the top I'm leaning 1 or 2 ways
1) N/A
a) Long Block
- .030" overbore (approx .75mm)
- stroke increase to be determined, but done by offset grinding existing crank (1-2mm?)
- Stock pistons machined for clearance
- "0" deck height block/piston clearance (yeah I know it will become an interferance engine
- rods TBA
- Ports matched only
- Seats back cut
- Valve bowls pocket ported
- 3 angle grind, valves back cut
- head surface machined .030"
- custom cam...TBA
- This should take us to about 1635cc
- c/r approx 10:1
b) Intake system will need to be a custom long runner manifold (gotta do math) with Velocity
  stacks on the intake side, in a correct displacement plenum...all using stock 1.6/16v
  hardware and injection parts.
- Throttle body will need to be modified with a velocity stack type inlet to increase flow
- Aluminum intake tube all the way to keep it smooth enhancing flow
- Custom air intake to enhance flow but still be off roadable.
- Header will be custom (gotta do math) but bias to extreme low end velocity, some form of
 extended tri y with a long collector.
   I really like your 1778cc combo, I think you brought it up with "Wild", but I want to try and make the on-line build ups something someone with little experience and stuck in the back waters can do.
  While I, like you, think the rod ratio is important it may get compromised to make this a build up that can be copied....but I still need to do some home work. Especially on the intake and cam.....gotta take another look at that 1778cc combo again too!
The goals on the N/A engine I have kinda set in my mind at
- 95hp   |removethispart|@ 4500rpm
- 115ft/lb |removethispart|@ 3000rpm
So about the same horse power but at 1000rpm less and approx 20% more torque at 1000rpm less....in short a real trail grindin / rock crawler.
The Turbo engine I don't have my head wrapped around yet...I just got a Turbo from a 1.5 Isuzu (brand new, never used) and it's the right size for a low down boost beast, but I have to work through details.
For a guy that has lived for big hp and big rpm I'm going through a pretty steep learning curve right now...so I'm open to ideas.
Thanks
Zag
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Damn CJ
Now you're making me think........
I've got to dig in my magazine library, Hot Rod did a back to back series of dyno runs on identical small block chevys........if I remember right 1) used 4.7" rods (stock is 5.7) the 2) engine used 6.7" rods.....the long rod produced more hp and torque across the board but I can't remember how much. And lets face it a 2" difference is rod length is extreme...but now I gotta find it and see if it's gonna be worth pursuing for this project.
Thanks
Zag
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The theory behind the longer rod is that it increases the piston dwell time thus letting in more mixture. Still need to take into account the Rod Ratio as the G16 is almost at the reasonable limits.
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The increase in dwell time is only part of the theory...The larger part is considered to be the reduction in rod angularity decreasing the power loss in changing the linear motion of the piston/rod into the rotating motion for the crankshaft. I gotta find that article!
But you are right the time at TDC during combustion does help matters a bunch.
Thanks
Zag
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Were the tests done with the same stroke and a taller and shorter blocks or the same height block and altered strokes or were there changes to the compression heights too?
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So many variables, so much to learn.
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;D I've missed some discussion
Stroke = increase of torque too
As stated, so many variables, a larger piston requires
less pressure (burned fuel/air) to perform the same work
as a smaller cylinder, this is basic hydraulic theory, and
engines share some of the same theories.
Lets face it, small engines have the air flow, pressure cards
stacked against them, get a big bore (4" ) engine and a longer
stroke and less PSI gives more work.
There are ways of making HP and Torque at lower RPM, but
smaller engines just don't do it as easy as bigger ones, I don't
think there is much better torque available in a 1.6 than the
stock cam can provide, but a supercharger boosting low down
could help alot
Low down for a 1.6 is in the 2500-3000 range, high being 6500
(in 4x4 trim) I don't get much over 6000 RPM under boost on the
hill climbs, and that's fine for me, that's where I want it
1 mm stroke on the crank is 2mm at the piston, how far can we go
and stay at the ideal ratio ??? about 2-3mm ???
I might have a stroker crank ground out of the toasted 1.6 8V
that is sitting in the old block
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Hey CJ
  ÂÂ
   Found the article, it's at home but I believe it was the May 95 issue of Hot Rod Magazine.
The engines were absolutely identical except for rod lenght and pin to crown heights, same everything.
   The difference in power was fairly impressive,bout 15% across the board (all rpm ranges) also dug out Smokey Yunicks book (Power Secrets) and he had similar results on various engines since the 50's. Smokey went into great glorious detail on the theory but in short he felt it was the reduction in rod angularity that made the biggest portion of the difference, the increase in time at TDC was secondary. It makes sense when you read it through, but basically the straighter the push DOWN on the rod journal the less energy is lost and more power to the crank. Longer rod, less angle-more power, shorter rod, more angle less-power.
   Interestingly both pieces made the same comment that unless you can make a dramatic difference in rod length there are easier places to find power.
   That said it will be interesting to do some reasearch to see how long a rod can be found to work with out hitting the ring lands and if it can be done affordably?
    "Now I remember why I keep all those magazines and manuals"
All dis dare thinkin makes me head hert!....Good topic though CJ we will have to pursue it a little more!
Hi "Wild"
   Wondered when you were gonna get in on this?
   I'm gonna disagree with you on getting more torque down low with the cam. I was amazed at the power I saw in an 8v with a special cam and some other tuning in a tractor a while ago...it pulled like a monster (comparatively) down low (under 3500rpm). The cam had significantly less duration (over 10 degrees) and signifigantly more lift (almost .050"). Based on seat of the pants measuring it had a lot of low down power. I was really surprised and impressed.
   I think that for the 16v it can be very effective, especially with what I've been reading on 16v's and using the lobes progressively to make valve timing changes....gotta try it anyway!
   Back to the rod ratio's, after reading through that stuff last night, I wouldn't get excited about the changes of rod ratio in your engine. Everything was saying it would take significant changes to get any effect and what you're doing is talking percentage points. The power increases in stroke on your project would overwhelm any percentage point losses caused by the rod ratio (IMHO).
Excellent topic and great discussion guys
Hey "Wild"
      What are your thoughts on low rpm turbo charging?
Thanks guys
Zag
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We could also lift the comp. ratio while keeping the stock bore by using Honda D15/D16 pistons (same bore and piston pin dia.) as they use G16 pistons to lower their comp. ratio for use with turbos.
I read that they pushed the little end to fit the Zuk pistons. That would mean that you would have to bore the little end to fit the Honda pistons to the Zuk which could compromise strength.
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We could also lift the comp. ratio while keeping the stock bore by using Honda D15/D16 pistons (same bore and piston pin dia.) as they use G16 pistons to lower their comp. ratio for use with turbos.
I read that they pushed the little end to fit the Zuk pistons. That would mean that you would have to bore the little end to fit the Honda pistons to the Zuk which could compromise strength.
The Honda pistons have a 19mm dia. the same as the G16 so it's no problem. When using the Miata/MX-5 78mm pistons though the little end needs attending to as they are 20mm. Hasn't been a problem so far for the engines I've heard of that have done this.
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I just reread that, I meant bushed, lol, you obviously understood anyway. OK I'm at work now and I have that ACL catalogue to refer to. The deck height (comp height) id higher on the MX5 piston and it looks to have a relatively deep dish. Is the top skimmed down to fit in the Zuk engine?
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I just reread that, I meant bushed, lol, you obviously understood anyway. OK I'm at work now and I have that ACL catalogue to refer to. The deck height (comp height) id higher on the MX5 piston and it looks to have a relatively deep dish. Is the top skimmed down to fit in the Zuk engine?
Yes. I don't know how much but I was told that there was still at least 0.100" at the thinnest point at the top of the piston and the compression ratio was lifted to 10 or 10.5:1 (can't remember, have to check).
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I'm falling behind again....
I'm a little worried about going 10-10.5:1 c/r with the fuel thats availabile...I was kinda thinking around 9.5-10.0:1 as a max.
Remember I llike to make these build rookies can copy.
That said I like the idea of a 10.5:1, high revving 1.6/16v with one of the new style progressive cams I've been researching.
In Oz and England is anyone doing any kind of racing with the Sidekick/Vitara, Rally, other?
Zag
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Comp. ratio with the machined 78mm pistons is 10:1, not a lot more than the stock 9.5:1 but it helps especially with the larger bore.
I have seen photos of a swb Kick used in Offroad racing here but don't know anyy details as it's done in other States.
Zag, I know you're talking about doing a build that others can copy but no matter which way you go, stroker, big bore, turbo etc. there's bound to work that will need to shopped out and 10:1 comp ratio on these engines with their alloy head and decent gas shouldn't pose any real problems I would have thought. I mean if you're chasing real power gains and it means using premium fuels so be it. Even if you can't always get it you can always carry some octane booster with you to add to regular gas if need be. Just my thoughts.
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I don't disagree CJ
   I guess I am just trying to get enough ideas together to come up with the most practical build and try to keep it real world and attainable.
   I hate the magazines that show these awesome engines...and then when you see the details it would take a years wages to build it.
   What do you guys think the average guy can really afford to spend to do a first class build?
Bearing in mind he/she is going to have to do the bulk of the dirty work.
Trying to balance power/practicality/attainability with a real budget.
Also bear in mind, I won't be starting this build for acouple months.
Zag
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I can't really say on cost given where I am but I think it's going to be a matter of "bang for buck". I suppose it will need to be decided N/A or Forced Induction and that means making some assumptions on what figures can realistically be acheived with reliability ie. if we build a stroker engine how much would it cost for what power/torque improvement and the same for a big bore or a high compression stock bore and stroke or any combination of these and look at a Turbo or Supercharger build in the same light. Will the forced induction use stock compression and a low boost setup or will some lower compressionn pistons be used meaning a tear down is required or what about using a decompression spacer and the turbo or blower used would need to able to found easily and cheaply enough by most users.
http://ferriday.co.uk/copper/copper.html
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I have been thinking this is going to be the way to go,
I can get coper gaskets for a reasonable cost $100-150
if I remember right.
-
Might really solve your c/r problem....
It's also interesting that it can let you play around with different types of pistons with out major machining...neat idea.
Zag
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   I'm a little worried about going 10-10.5:1 c/r with the fuel thats availabile...I was kinda thinking around 9.5-10.0:1 as a max.
   ÂÂ
My handbook says CR is 8.9:1. Ignition Timing 8deg vor p.m.s. (Spanish eh, they forgot to translate that bit, lol) 91 Octane RON or higher. Our lowest grade fuel is 95 octane RON so I reckon theres scope for 10:1 no problems, maybe back the timing off a little bit if it pinks. I don't think I'd want to go over that on a 2V per cylinder motor for the street, I don't have any numbers to back that up it just seems to have traditionally been the limit for a street motor over here since they dropped 100 octane fuel years ago.
    In Oz and England is anyone doing any kind of racing with the Sidekick/Vitara, Rally, other?
I know of one that has competed in the last few years in Safari racing (I would imagine its a bit like what you were /are planning), won its class too. Mainly we do low speed trials type driving, the sort where the spectators walk faster than you can drive ;D Most sites have a 5mph or 10mph speed limit which is usually pretty optimistic.
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My fuel concern is here posted octanes are
-87 Regular
-92-95 Premium
My Alfa is 11.0:1 and I have to blend avgas and premium to keep factory settings and that is a pain.
Zag
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Rhino the 8.9:1 is for the 8v and we are talking about the 16v which is 9.5:1
Zag, we have 98 RON which is about your 93 and that should be fine for a 10:1 but yeah I wouldn't want to try 11.0:1 on it.
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Yeah but CJ
Premium just went to 1.099 a litre, and I'm cheap! lol
Zag
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Rhino the 8.9:1 is for the 8v and we are talking about the 16v which is 9.5:1
Zag, we have 98 RON which is about your 93 and that should be fine for a 10:1 but yeah I wouldn't want to try 11.0:1 on it.
oops ::) Not concentrating again. The figures for the 16V were right in the next column too :-[
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So the interest level is for the 1.6/16v?
CJ and Rhinoman, you guys would like to see the build kicked up a notch from your comments.
Whats everyone else think?
Zag
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So the interest level is for the 1.6/16v?
   CJ and Rhinoman, you guys would like to see the build kicked up a notch from your comments.
   Whats everyone else think?
Zag
Personally I'm waiting for the 2ltr conversion. I'm interested in how the others go because I'm always interested in that kind of stuff. I don't think it would be worth my while fitting a 1.6 16V to my 8V but the 2ltr would be worth it and the old 1.6 8V could always go in either the Jimny (using the Jimny top end and MPI) or the 410. At the moment my insurance is a killer because of some naughtiness on the bike, but it will come down a bit next year or the year after.
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Ah my 1/2 built 2.0L swap
That along with other projects is on hold due to business problems, but you and my wife are waiting for it. Shes not as patient, she wants that 135hp in a big way!
I will keep you posted when I get back to it.
Zag
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So the interest level is for the 1.6/16v?
   CJ and Rhinoman, you guys would like to see the build kicked up a notch from your comments.
   Whats everyone else think?
Zag
Yep, I looked at doing a 2.0 swap but right now a worked over 1.6 16v is of more interest as it's no drama doing some tweaking to the original engine but a swap is more involved down here as we need to deal with Engineers Approvals on these sort of mods plus it won't alter the insurance. Also there's probably a lot more 1.6's running around that guys would like to get some more power out off. The 2.0 will start to be more popular as the prices drop and availability improves. But I have been toying with the idea of buying a 2.0 swb as we had this model ;D
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With the combo of your 8V rebuild, my mechanic (that builds drag cars) and Z-World, I am going to attempt to rebuild my Knocking 8V and my 16V with a worn Key way, into more powerfull and torque delivering engines for both my X-90 and my Kick. It may be this winter till I get around to it, but it will happen.
Zig
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I wish I woulda seen this before I tore mine down.
1990 Tracker 1.6 8v. I reused the pistons, bores were good. Had to turn the crank to .020/.020, replaced the oilpump and water pump. There were signs of scoring in the bearings and on the crank. I just wanted the insurance of a new w/p....
I also added a Calmini midrange cam and Calmini header. I am currently in the process of installing the engine in the Tracker, now. Right now, I am tied down with work, taking care of a newborn and flight training. Oh.... and sleep.
BTW... Zag... I find it cool that youre a pilot. I'm a student and very familiar with the use of the Metro 3cyl in experimentals and ultralights. ;)
Here's a pic or three of mine.
(http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0QQCVApsRLxtRDGbtHapYaQzpSbZygZoiweAbLtAwRZXWKIC!uBibZ1rsQzw2vSKadEid50PvNgk8kB7rRZRx9o5kQux!xMFWCtu8pXLU2Cc/MVC-920F.JPG?dc=4675535831661107499)
(http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0QQDrAqARSxyEBxCeF0LjNk9UiJI788t9xDZBCQCBCESQTBTOaDU1e4Tc5Xc0hCFnjyFoi1rfaDB0Ke*BE5GN8*1oEMfNlOuHrob8beZbDtA/MVC-916F.JPG?dc=4675535618482680504)
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Hey Zig
   I was only teasing......but nows a good time to start thinking of the stuff you want to do and start saving for it.....wish I could find a cheap X-90, up here they are worth a fortune and extremely rare, but I have too many projects now. LOL. Oh yeah, check out Wilds proting when he gets the pics up, he's doing all the right stuff.
B1pig
  ÂÂ
   I really hope you're enjoying the flight training, sorry guys, but it will always be my first love. Your engine looks great! Especially for a budget rebuild, I am sure it's gonna work well for you.
   Careful about flying on a 3 cyl, lots of problems, torsional failures, drive failures, I looked hard at them and built one Normally aspirated and one Turbo and dropped the 3 from my research because the 15-20lb weight difference wasn't worth the very serious problems (IMHO).
   But what really worries me is what some guys are advocating when it comes to building them for aircraft. If you check out high performance engine glitch on the board you will see the extreme prep that I believe should go into an engine that is going to fly. IMHO any less and you are risking your life.
   My Dad learned to fly in 1939 and had 38,000hours when he retired (eyes). Flew everything form tube and fabric biplanes right up to jets. Before he learned to fly he became a journeyman mechanic (1935), once he retired he became an high school automotive teacher. So you see where I get it from.
      First time I flew I was 3 weeks old, went on to get my glider and private licences by the time I was 16. I was really lucky and became a member of the Canadian Airforce and went as far as the Tudor (jet that the SnowBirds fly) before an injury took me out of the program. Got some real cool rides in the CAF, wish it had worked out better. Now I do volunteer work with an Aviation Museum.
   How much do I love flying...I fought 15 years to get my medical back to fly light aircraft. I'm glad I did...it eventually lead me here!
   My daughter has been flying since she was 3 and my son who is now 4 months will also get an early introduction.
   I'm really proud of my daughter, she is 13 now and just annouced she wants to join the Canadian Airforce...get her University degree and become a fighter pilot.
Wow see how much I bather when flying and my kids come up......I'll shut up now!
Zag
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Ok guys
   Last call for input on this winters on-line project........it's going to be
- 1992 1.6/16v (from my wifes SideKick, whick means I have to finish the 2.0L swap first)
Plan to start in November/December
Current plan
1) DIY fully ported polished cylinder head
2) Performance camshaft, biased to low/mid range
3) Intake will be fully polished and prepped, plus other induction mods
4) Long block fully overhauled with
5) High compression, oversize pistons (probly mazda)
6) Windage tray (just gotta try it)
7) balanced, blue printed, etc
8) Header, custom exhaust
Goals...
- 95hp |removethispart|@ 4000rpm
- 115 ft/lbs torque |removethispart|@ 3000rpm
Build will concentrate on every little horsepower/torque building mod you can do at home
I want it to be something everyone can copy with minimal subletting....
Thoughts?
***Update***
The original 8v engine build has been sold to a person that has installed it in a 89 Kick 2dr
final assembly included
- Custom Cam 208 intake/211 exhaust duration- .380 intake/.385 exhaust lift
- Pacesetter header with 2 1/8 exhaust
- Custom aircleaner
-Customer reports it goes like a rocket and is getting 34mpg Cdn/27mpg US........
-Claims he can now pull hills in 5th that used to take 3rd (sounds to good to me?)
-Cruises at 120km in 5th easy.
This is apparently the 3rd engine he has installed since Kick was new! 415,000km!
Unfortunatley he will not come on line as he does not have or want internet.
He is an old time regular customer of mine so I will keep bugging him to join us.
Zag
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-Customer reports it goes like a rocket and is getting 34mpg Cdn/27mpg US........
-Claims he can now pull hills in 5th that used to take 3rd (sounds to good to me?)
-Cruises at 120km in 5th easy.
Whats a Cdn gallon, is that like a proper English gallon?
120km, sounds fast but Convert says thats 75mph, I guess it depends on your definition of cruising (and your gearing!).
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Zag, this sounds good.
Just wondering did you mean windage tray or crank scraper as I'm keen to see how these will work for us.
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Hey Rhinoman
A Canadian gallon is Imperial just like the Mother Country. I agree 120km doesn't sound fast but he reports he can now hold it on inclines and hills where he used to have to shift down (he travels between Edmonton and Yellowknife regularly). I think he's exagerating a little, but he's real happy with it's hill power and acceleration compared to his stock motors.
He's running 5.12's with 235/75/15 tires....wish he would bring me the pics he promised.
It's a nice little Track he has owned since new, no rust, no damage, 415,000km and you would think it was 41,500km. He has always run the 235 tires and has an adapter from somewhere that corrects his speedo. I'll keep buggin him for pics.
Hey CJ
I plan to do a homemade windage tray and crank scrapper, as well as every other DIY horsepower builder I can think of. Going to do the big bore with compression boost.
Hope this is what you guys want to see for a build.
Zag
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8) 8) 8)
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After reading Rhinomans questions yesterday I called the guy to get some more definitive input on how the engine works
- 89 Tracker 2 dr 5speed
- 235-75-15 ground grips (not off road tires) with 5.12 gears
- Speedo corrected with adapter
Jim reports (guy is another pilot and keeps logbooks on everything)
- When stock engine was new 29mpg Cdn/Now 34mpg Cdn
(he attributes it to not having to downshift as much and not having to floor it to hold speed)
- Uses no oil at all on round trip to Yellowknife (about 2500-3000km)
- Stock when new hard to hold 120km on moderate inclines without flooring it or
downshifting/Now no problem
- There is what he calls "The3 mile hill" on the way to Yellowknife, Stock new had to shift
down to 3rd and slowed to 80km to make it even when new/Now makes it all the way in 5th
but drops to 100km from 120km while holding steady throttle.
He's not a wheeler and is very good with his vehicles so it's tough to draw a comparision to off roading but.......he's happy, has some more power and is getting good gas mileage.
Guess the first engine achieved it's objectives!
Zag
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Sounds good, I winder if I will be able to gt the same results out of a motor that was knocking when it was pulled out of the Kick?
Zig
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No reason you can't.....
All the stuff we did on this build was basic, easy for the DIYer. I feel based on what the end user is reporting and realistic past experience the little 8v is now pushing close to the 16v's power.
The whole idea of these builds is so YOU can copy it without a lot of subletting or custom equipment. The keys are been super clean, careful and following the routine.
Heck I'm thinking of making my 13 year old daughter build the 16v (under supervision).
Zag
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get em started early :)
my first engine build was a kz1000 when I was 14 (motor came in a box, about 3 of them actually). that was one sweet machine when done and I could sneak it out for a ride :)
my supervision consisted of the step father and the local kawi guy who ran the kz100 engine in his drag bike.
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Here are a few comments, and questions.
Here in Colorado, when you get up in the mountians, the elevation is quite high. This is where FI really shines, where carbs need to be re jetted for the thinner air. Your 16v project only gives 16 lbs more torque, and the same hp at a lower rpm. Which is good for off road, but cant we have a little more hp? Mine is a dd, and I do take a road trip once a week, so more power for the hills would be nice. Your friend now gets 27mpg(US) with your rebuild, but my 4dr already gets that. You said your wife's rig gets 38mpg, that must be canadian? If that is a US mpg, and with the price of gas now, that would be quite a mod. What did you do besides exaust and k/n intake? That speedo converter sounds interesting also. If I could only get mine to work.....
Did he do any lifting to get the 235's on?
Thanks for this informative post,
Jeff
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Hi Echo
A lot of gas mileage depends on driving style. You'll notice his jumped from 29 to 34. I don't drive with him so I can only look at the improvement. He has the 235 ground grips on stock rims, no lift.
My wifes is 38mpg Cdn, about 30mpg US. NGK plugs, always in tune, 2" exhaust with Turbo type muffler,KN insert with the airbox opened up a little. Gets alot better scoot and better gas mileage than original.
On the 16v build......With this engine I want to try and build a real grunt/grind trail motor, that why I'm biasing everything to the low end. It also makes it seem like there is not as much improvement because I am trying to keep it in the lower (under 4000rpm) range.
RPM makes power when you build with the intent of using it, this same build project could be biased to the mid-range and you would get more hp and torque, but you would be using more rpm to get it. If you're interested we can talk about low vs mid-range options during the build and that way guys can tailor the engine to what they want.
Think that will cover your interests?
Zag
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If you're interested we can talk about low vs mid-range options during the build and that way guys can tailor the engine to what they want.
Sounds like a plan.
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Here are a few comments, and questions. Your 16v project only gives 16 lbs more torque, and the same hp at a lower rpm.ÂÂ
I'd be interested in how flat the torque curve is too. 16lbs more peak torque might not sound a lot but if it is a flat torque curve then it can be a much bigger improvement elsewhere. Years ago one of the car mags over here used to take an integral of the area under the power curve to give a better representation of how much overall power an engine made, it is a useful comparison. I ended up doing this with my bike engine too to get an accurate idea of the total power made in the usable rpm range. For the race bike (600cc single cylinder 4 stroke 5 speed road gearbox) the useful power range was 5000-8500rpm in the dry 4000-8500 in the wet. One time I made a cam change and I got 10% more power, lap times at my local circuit were the same. Taking an integral over the 3000rpm range used showed the bike made the same total power - it was just peakier and more difficult to ride. I hope this makes sense cos I've had a few drinks ;D
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hey Zaggy on the subject of engine mods, you said you read a lot of stuff down the library. Have you got any good recomendations for books or white papers. The only stuff I have is bike stuff (4 stroke) a lot of which still applies but i was looking to read up on some more car focused stuff. I have at least one engine to rebuild (1500 Ford - not Zuk I'm afraid).
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Peak power figures don't really tell the whole story. I agree the torque curve has to be looked at. We need to remember that Power is Torque x RPM so if you have more torque created anywhere in the rev range you have more power at those revs and more power means we can go faster. A nice big flat torque curve would be great even if the peak power barely changes. Zag I know in some of testing you have done you have used standing start acceleration times to measure gains but may I suggest that you also consider doing some "in gear acceleration times" in different gears as this will give a good indication of the driving characteristics to be had.
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Hi gang
CJ and Rhinoman
You are absolutely right when it comes to torque...the more the flatter the better. Interesting Ideal on the area under the power curve, I like it and it makes sense.
Rhinoman
Playing with Fords eh. Must be for that limited production sports car I saw on your website.
I'm at the shop right now finishing some stuff up but remind me and I will see if I have any good references.
1500 Ford, that would be the Kent engine, 1100, 1300, 1500 and of course the 1600.
Anglia, Cortina, Escort and the infamous formula fords and Lotus 7 series 1 through 3... Super little engine. I'd suggest check out the guys racing sedans and Formula Fords....these guys have forgotten more about those motors than I will ever know.
You live in the land that did all the performance and developement work on these engines. I'll bet parts will be cheap and easy to get.
Jim Russel had some good prep books on these. Also most 65-70 Cortina GT parts should swap......cool project I'll check my stuff too.
Zag
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   1500 Ford, that would be the Kent engine, 1100, 1300, 1500 and of course the 1600.
Anglia, Cortina, Escort and the infamous formula fords and Lotus 7 series 1 through 3... Super little engine. I'd suggest check out the guys racing sedans and Formula Fords....these guys have forgotten more about those motors than I will ever know.
   You live in the land that did all the performance and developement work on these engines. I'll bet parts will be cheap and easy to get.
   Jim Russel had some good prep books on these. Also most 65-70 Cortina GT parts should swap......cool project I'll check my stuff too.
Zag
You lose that bet, lol. Stuff for these old motors costs a lot as the historic racing boys want it all. Its a 1500cc 120E engine, the early pre-crossflow engine that later evolved into the crossflow.
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Holy Smokes
That one is older than I thought! As far as good basic books..........
- Smokey Yunicks power secrets is one of my favorites, covers the basics on most topics.
- Preparing to win, last name Smith, is also a good basic book.
- Of course the manual for any given engine is always a must.
- Basic engine design by Paul Lamar
The books I get out of the library are genrally reference books....
- Sound waves and Sonic waves
- Mathmatics of Automotive engineering....SAE manual
- Hydralic flow and design...SAE manual
- Aerodynamics...SAE manual
I might have some of the titles screw3d up as I end up looking them up by topic but this should help.
You might also want to check out....
- Building the Nissan A-12....Nissan motor sports
- Race prepraing the Datsun 1200/B210/210
The engine is of a very similar design and a lot of the information should transfer. (it's rumored to be a rip off of the english engine)
Hope that helps
Zag
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- Preparing to win, last name Smith, is also a good basic book.
Prepare to Win by Caroll Smith
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Thanks CJ
I couldn't remember the first name!
Zag
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About 15 years ago, A friend of mine in Montana had a sammy. He towed in behind his motorhome. Once he went to Yellowstone. He camped at one end and drove the sammy to the other end. His fuel pump went out, so he hooked up the window washer to the fuel line. He had to keep squirting it all the way back. What does this have to do with this thread? He always wanted to put a B210 engine in. He finally did, but he moved before I got to see it. He was in the Air Force. I had a B210 for 9years. I thought it was not that much of a power boost. But 60hp to 80hp is a 30% increase, so I guess thats not too bad.
Jeff
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You friend is amazing.........
I never would have thought of using the W/S washer for a fuel pump...that is cool. The old B210/210 A series was a good old girl and are still being actively raced.
Thanks Echo
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Project RallyKick is back in action
So I am quietly starting to gather parts for this project.......it will become the 2nd engine for project RallyKick!
Zag
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The fellow the ended up with the "Do it yerself engine" was just by for coffee
After a couple trips up North it's all broke in and on it's second oil change.
-Perforance as per last reports
-Gas mileage up to 37mpg Cdn, about 31-32 US
-Loves the engine
-Hates the Pacesetter header, had to have it repaired twice, switching to a Calmini next time
it fails (be interesting to hear the difference)
-Adding a full low restriction aircleaner set up instead of just the K&N insert
All in all a happy camper
Zag
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With all the new members I thought I would bump this up as it should answer alot of the questions that have been coming up.
Hope it helps
Zag
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I am new to modifying engines but would it be a possible mod for the 1.3ltr sierra/samuri and remain reliable. Use the 1.6ltr Crank with the 1.3ltr rods and higher crowned pistons (possably Domed topped pistons) also to use the Swift GTi head. so you arrive at a stroker 1.3 that will have higher compression with twin cams? What are your thoughts? I currently have extractors with 2 1/4' exhaust and a k&N hi flo pod
Cheers
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late post
never use oven cleaner that contains LYE , it distroys aluminum
old fashon EasyOFF has pure LYE.
it is the best grease cutter, that is true.
ware goggles , cuz it remove Eyes too.
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"Now lets look at the intake side...."
Did I read correctly and you are suggesting everything should be smooth???
If so, this is an old school belief and absolutely INCORRECT. The engine may be basically an air pump BUT the intake port is going to flow both FUEL and air and since fuel weighs more than air it is difficult to keep it evenly mixed with the air as it follows the contours of the port. If your intake is smooth, the fuel will bead up on the walls of the intake port instead of staying suspended in the air. Rather than polishing the intake, 60 grit sandpaper scratches that are at a 90 degree angle to the flow is highly recommended.
Other than that (and maybe I just misunderstood), your writeup is great!
Heck, while looking at the intake side consider high velocity intake porting. You can do it yourself following MotoMan's easy to follow instructions - search the internet and you should be able to find them on his MototuneUSA website. The 8V intake ports are too big which causes blowback during the Charging phase; they would greatly benefit from high velocity intake porting. I suspect the same is true for the 16V but have never torn one down.