ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Suzuki 4x4 Forum => Topic started by: kozaz on April 26, 2005, 05:44:50 AM
-
Newbie confused IFS/Front Differential Upgrades? (LONG)
1st time post and Man is it an Epic!
A little back ground, I'm a Toyota guy that does not have the IFS SUCKS Pirate Syndrome. I like to be different and am looking at buying a Sidekick / Tracker. But before I buy one, I wanted to know what is currently available for IFS upgrades. I could upgrade my current Toyota IFS to Total Chaos arms kit and get 12 inches of travel (4x4). But I believe a smaller vehicle is order that is why I'm looking at a Zuk, this will also allow me to drive the Toyota then have a dedicated Zuk trail rig.
After searching and stumbling across Mikes and Kerrys developing saga on Stronger CV joints and centered diffs, I felt like I was drinking from a fire hose. The real kicker was, I actually happen to read the threads in the correct order which left me in shock and disppointed about Kerry ending up not producing a product (lack of money).
I'm not hear to stir up a bee hive so please do not respond to this thread in that way.
Since I'm new, and after reading all those threads, I'm having a hard time figuring out what is really available for an Zuk IFS Upgrade. So bear with me.
Besides the Anvil, and Mike Hagen's Nissan/Ford CV Joint upgrade, what is available or currently in work? I'm not asking for development secrets, I'm asking for an (OVERVIEW) on what is IN DEVELOPMENT or CURRENT mods that are documented or ideas floating around?
I would like to not only see stronger CVs, but would also like to see LONGER ones as well (Excellent way for greater IFS Travel is longer CVs!).
I'm stating the following so everybody does have to rehash it unless it is necessary. Greater Travel can be accomplished by using longer CVS in conjunction with either longer Arms, or a new centered front diff that is not as wide as the stock diff.
Custom Diff that is not as wide as current stock diff or Anvil width:
I read about the ford nine inch diff ideas, I do believe the combination of engine raising and/or using/modifying a different Oil pan (Samurai) will be required to accomplish this. This option could give you the longer CV shafts with stock arms or even longer shafts with longer arms (Calmini kit).
Anvil Diff or Stock length Diff:
It currently looks like larger CVs and Shafts are going to be available for the Anvil or stock diff. I'm not sure if they are for the following:
Stock arms
Hagen's Widen modifications
Calmini's 3 inch lift ARMS.
I do believe the effort is geared toward STRONGER CVs, I would like to see an effort for GREATER TRAVEL (Longer CVs) with at least 12-13 inches of travel.
With that stated I have the following questions:
What is the current IFS Travel for modifed and stock Zuk IFS?
I assume the Tora Tora Axles are not longer in development?
Is Mikes IFS Toy Cv swap just a CV Swap or includes a Diff (Toyota, Zuk, or anvil) upgrade as well? (trying not to step on toes Mike, I can understand the development thing and money invested)
An Idea I have since I'm a Toyota guy:
Has anybody tried installing a Toy Front diff in a Side/Traker? I seen the following in a thread where a Toy front Diff was installed in Vitara. I would think this would be the most logical, and the cheapest. Just fab up some brackets and your done. But I'm not sure if the frame rails on a Vitara are wider than the frame rails of a Side/Traker so will Toy Diff fit in a Side/Traker?
Toyota front differential in Vitara Pirate4x4 Link http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=318480
If Frame Rail is an issue, then researching of the Front Toy Diff is in order, I think you can take the long side off of the Toy Diff and replace it with the identical short side of a Toy Diff, resulting in a front center diff that would have same length stub shafts, that could bolt direct to Toyota CV Shafts, then the only conversion need is the outer part of the Toy CV Shaft to Zuk Hub. Toyota Shaft Length comes into the picture, not sure the length required, but, Toyota Chaos Kit use T100 axles, the T100 axles are 3 inches longer, this makes up for the 3 inch longer Arms of the Toyota Chaos kit
Sorry for being so long but it is hard trying to type it so It is understandable, my brain and fingers do not what to communicate to each other lol!
Any comments would be greatly appreciated!
By the way great site, looks like I will be visting regulary!
-
You have some pretty intriquing ideas. One potential problem I can see with a center-mount diff though. Last night while laying under my silver Tracker, reconnecting the exhaust after a close encounter with a big rock, I was looking at the front shaft and diff assembly and thinking about different mods myself. If you center the front diff, wouldn't the front driveshaft hit the transmission? What sort of re-location were you thinking of for the married t-case setup of the Track/kick?
-
Here is a picture of a "Front Differential Upgrade."
(http://www.granitepath.com/friends/kd7hcg/pictures/toyaxles/flex/DCP_6902.jpg)
-
If you center the front diff, wouldn't the front driveshaft hit the transmission? What sort of re-location were you thinking of for the married t-case setup of the Track/kick?
Sorry, but I'm new to the zuk front setup, the idea came from Bobzooki's "Evil Seed 9 inch Anvil" Thread.  I was only adding information about how a offset Toyota Front diff may be modified to  be used as a Centered Diff.  (If a Toyota front diff is used and a toyota rear axle is used you would have the same gearing).
Otherwise, if it is anything like my Toyota, (Just like you stated) the centered front diff would not work unless you clear the Oil pan/Transmission via engine lift, use a different/modified Oil pan, or clock the tranfer case.
I just can not remember, through the threads I read, if somebody build a center diff or not.  ??? ÂÂ
-
Here is a picture of a "Front Differential Upgrade."
If I wanted a solid axle, I would have bought a 83-85 Yota! ;)
This thread is not SAS vs IFS please keep that way. ;D
-
If I wanted a solid axle, I would have bought a 83-85 Yota! ;)
This thread is not SAS vs IFS please keep that way. ;D
Well you did say that you were a newbie and were 'confused' and wanted a front differential upgrade...
What more can I say.
;D
~Nate
-
Well you did say that you were a newbie and were 'confused' and wanted a front differential upgrade...
What more can I say.
;D
~Nate
You really need to go back and re-read my thread, "Confused" had nothing to do with SAS.
-
Newbie confused IFS/Front Differential Upgrades? (LONG)
... I wanted to know what is currently available for IFS upgrades.
Some people might think that SAS is an IFS upgrade.
~Nate
But I'd bet that Mike and Stan might have a differing opinions.
-
But I'd bet that Mike and Stan might have a differing opinions.
Hey, what is Stan's screen name? I seen some interesting threads about this guy.
-
Hey, what is Stan's screen name? I seen some interesting threads about this guy.
I'm not sure
I did witness his setup first hand and was VERY impressed.
Then again, it was Mike who pulled me out of Golden Spike/Gold Bar Rim.
~Nate
-
An Idea I have since I'm a Toyota guy:
Has anybody tried installing a Toy Front diff in a Side/Traker?
I think Natebert got you with this one.. ;) Since our front SAS IS a Toy front Diff.. (FJ80)
But anyways..
I can understand the IFS thing, I saw firsthand in Moab how nice IFS is, and always will be for hi-tailing it across the desert. We wanted at first to keep upgrading our IFS front, but realized it was almost easier and about the same price to go SAS.
However, Mike and Stan's setups are really nice.
Where's Mike when you need him? He could probably explain how much travel he has. MIKE! Get in here!
-
OH GREAT! now we have a yota guy to ask questions about yota axles!  welcome kozaz, don't forget to check out the water cooler too.
stu
-
Stan is 37kicker.
-
The Vitara on pirate is exactly the same as a track/kick everything but the name ;) as long as it isn't a sport the frame will be equally wide.
I still have to beef up my front suspension, so I'm gonna watch this thread closely ;D
-
did you forget who pulled Ross out & up the hills on the spike trail? ? ??? a big yellow rig. ;Dnuff said. i have a 9 inch front & rear in my kick with up graded axles. there is a kit avalible for this upgrade. not the 9 inch but the axle part.
-
i have a 9 inch front & rear in my kick with up graded axles. there is a kit avalible for this upgrade. not the 9 inch but the axle part. ÂÂ
Hey Stan!
Is your front 9inch offset or centered?
Do you mind explaining the Axle part?
Any pictures of your front Setup?
I'm tying to gather as much info as I can about modified IFS setups in Sidekicks.
Thanks!
P.S. I'm really looking forward to the Toyota CV upgrade that Bobzooki mentioned in another thread. :D
-
Wow! Kozaz, you really did your homework before you posted. Thanks, we all apreciate that.
Front travel is currently maxed out by how long of a strut you can get. So center mounting the Diff is probabally not worth the trouble. Currently the longest strut you can get is an OME. They only have 40mm more travel over stock. It equals more than that at the wheel. I measured the travel at the wheel about 4 years ago but I dont remember what it was. I think it was close to 10 inches at the hub. Anyways, Very strong IFS components are becoming availible. Calmini makes the Anvil front diff, Sky MFG makes an unbendable Idler arm, and Stan does have a CV setup on the way. I would recomend building a strut brace. Nobody builds one of those yet. I dont know if I answered any questions for you but if I didnt feel free to ask again....wow look at the time, I gotta go to bed! :P
Mike
-
To try and answer a few of your questions:
Travel length? Dont know, I have not measured it in a while. It works good as is so I'm not realy worried about wheel travel.
Available mods:
GV-XL-7 steel housing and carrier with stock shaft set up
Anvil with yout choice of 3rd housings ( I went with the XL-7) and same side shafts (drivers side for easier trail Fix) At this point you can do Mikes Explorer or Maxima shaft upgrade without much trouble if you want stronger shafts.
Then there has been an assortment of custom work done by different people. Mikes Sami 3rd, center mounted in a custom Anvil and custom shafts, Stans Ford 9" center mountes with all custom Outters. Both are bad ass and damn near bullett proof.
Then there is the untouched custom work that it sounds like you have visioned. Welcome to the IFS club ;) You have picked an awesome little ride to build off of, you wont be disapointed (Plus, if you stay IFS you can build a decent trail rig that you can still drive to the opposite end of the country, wheel it and drive it home at 70-75 MPH ;D
Welcome to Zukiworld,
Zig
http://www.zukiworld.com/month_110103/feature_zigsbeef.htm
(http://www.zukiworld.com/month_110103/images/zigbuildup_large.jpg)
-
I dont know if I answered any questions for you but if I didnt feel free to ask again...  :P
Mike
Ok Mike, I'm going to fire away!
How did you clear your driveshaft to the "Centered Proto-type Anvil"? ÂÂ
Did you have to swap/modified oil pans?
Is the Diff Dropped further down then in the normal 3 inch Calmini kit?
Did you raise the engine?
Did you clock the rear transit case?
Any pics?
What backspacing are your wheels?
Are you done yet?
Are you done yet?
I sound like an annoying kid!
If I'm treading on manufacturing territory secrets please say so, after reading some of the posts, I'm under the impression that you either work for Calmini or you're one of their favorite test subjects.
P.S.  Your avatar kicks butt, what color is that?
-
If I'm treading on manufacturing territory secrets please say so, after reading some of the posts, I'm under the impression that you either work for Calmini or you're one of their favorite test subjects.
well, i don't think anyone from Calmini visits this site( exept Calminipoducts...) and i don't think anyone has any "real" secrets but we all have our own little tweeks that we never told anyone about and thats what makes us alittle different from "The Jeep Guys"
stu
-
Ok Mike, I'm going to fire away!
How did you clear your driveshaft to the "Centered Proto-type Anvil"?
Did you have to swap/modified oil pans?
Is the Diff Dropped further down then in the normal 3 inch Calmini kit?
Did you raise the engine?
Did you clock the rear transit case?
Any pics?
What backspacing are your wheels?
Are you done yet?
Are you done yet?
I sound like an annoying kid!
If I'm treading on manufacturing territory secrets please say so, after reading some of the posts, I'm under the impression that you either work for Calmini or you're one of their favorite test subjects.
P.S. Your avatar kicks butt, what color is that?
How did you clear your driveshaft to the "Centered Proto-type Anvil"?
Its not a far stretch from stock. The driveshaft only moves over like 4 inches.
Did you have to swap/modified oil pans?
Is the Diff Dropped further down then in the normal 3 inch Calmini kit? No and no.
Did you raise the engine? Bingo! 3 inch motor lift. I also had to cut the crossmembers that hold the controlarms and drop them 1 1/2 inches. (this is a another long story.
Did you clock the rear transit case? No
Any pics? No, I always mean to but never do.
What backspacing are your wheels? 4 1/2
Are you done yet? Are you done yet?No and no
If I'm treading on manufacturing territory secrets please say so, after reading some of the posts, I'm under the impression that you either work for Calmini or you're one of their favorite test subjects. I do not work for Calmini but I like to think I am a favorite test subject.:P As for manufactoring secrets, Im not sure that I can talk about why I have one. Its not all that different from the one Calmini sells, just missing the long side. 2 short sides. It holds the same short side axles that the normal Anvil comes with.
P.S. Your avatar kicks butt, what color is that? Its a custom color. A guy at the body shop next door mixed it up for me. It only has a part# ;D It usually looks red/orange but in pics it looks red and under the gas station light at night it looks very pale orange/yellow.
Mike
-
KOZAZ, my 9" diff. is not centered and i had to raise my motor 1.5" if i remember correctly. i am running toy cv's and some other mods. i dont have any pixs handy. :( i modified toy van spindles on my rig but since then i figured out a better way to do this, (what bobzook talked about) ;D any more ?? stan
-
KOZAZ, my 9" diff. is not centered and i had to raise my motor 1.5" if i remember correctly.  ;D any more ??    stan
Did you custom sleeve/axle your 9-inch housing to get the offset? If not what did it come out of?
-
I custom built the front, dont remember what the donor was. stan
-
Welcome.
I read your thread pretty quickly and I couldn`t see anywhere that said what you want out of your zuk.
Where are you going to take your truck?
Take for example me , I dont very often see a rock, Its all mud and water so I built it to deal with that.
So i dont have the type of issues guys in the US have.
I just have other issues from the results
of this......  just my dollars worth :-)
(http://pic15.picturetrail.com/VOL617/2393799/6821221/88063304.jpg)
You might go to a lot of effort modifing things that you and your truck might not need.
-
where can i get stan's toyota cv adapters?
-
Send Mikerpm4x4 a PM and let him know that you are interested. He can get in touch with Stan ;)
Zig
-
I may have the ultimate IFS upgrade right now:
Calmini Anvil and NO inner or outer axles installed at all!
Well, the Toyota 2nd gen 4-Runner IFS axles are laying on the shop floor, waiting for Stan's adapters (and the inner axles are on the way to Stan for modification)...
Yota IFS axles make stock Sidekick axles look like toothpicks!
-
What modificaions is Stan doing to the inner axles and why?
-
What modificaions is Stan doing to the inner axles and why?ÂÂ
Well, because I have an Anvil (and an Anvil is 3/4" wider than a stock diff), he has to machine the flanges on both sides to "fit" the Toy axles in. That's as much as I know about it.
-
Ohhh.... I thinking of doing this upgrade aswell we we put in our anvil. What are the "flanges"?
Also could you take a pic of the yota axle next to the Kick for a comparison?
-
Ohhh.... I thinking of doing this upgrade aswell we we put in our anvil. What are the "flanges"?
Also could you take a pic of the yota axle next to the Kick for a comparison?
Well... When you go with an Anvil, you switch to a short inner axle on the passenger side, leaving you with "3-bolt flanges" on BOTH sides, so you can use "Driver's Side" CV axles on BOTH sides. Because both sides are now the same, you only have to carry ONE spare. So the inner's end in a flat flange, with three holes, that mate up to the CV cup.
The Toy axles are SIX bolt units, about twice the diameter. My digicam is dead, so I can't take a pic right now, but I will, as soon as I can.
Here's the flange:
(http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/1018/anvil29ra.jpg)
-
Oh I see... Thanks for the info :D
-
Hi kozaz,
Well you certainly have got everyone going AGAIN! It is all good ;D.
Basically the common components here always seem to be - Get a Calmini 3" lift kit and start from there. The Anvil is a very simple bolt in upgrade and worth serious consideration as well.
SAS conversions are an easy upgrade but where is the challenge?:- Although if you do a SAS using coils ( as I have done ) then it does get interesting! SAS is good for a BIG lift but that is about it really.
But I am going to build a IFS set up this time - building a custom SAS front end gave me a few ideas for front end upgrades!!!
This site is full of great contributors with great ideas that have actually been built! ( These people are not full of hot air ).
Read with interest and follow your own path - you never know, we may end up using some of your mods some day ( if you share them! ).
Good luck and WELCOME!!!
Zeus