ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Suzuki 4x4 Forum => Topic started by: bentparts on October 02, 2012, 04:31:11 AM
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Hey guys, getting ready to pull the engine from my 95 Tracker to replace with the one I just rebuilt. I'm at the point of finding and disconnecting all the wiring and having trouble with the main harness that runs under the intake. Anyone done this before and have any tips on how to get it out? Any other engine removal tips or tricks would also be greatly appreciated.
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When I've done it I pull out the alt and the intake support brace. Then unplug all the wiring from everything, reach under the intake and unwrap the harness clamps and pull the complete harness out the back and lay it up by the battery tray until the new motor is in. Pain in the butt but my meathooks are too big to do it any other way. Good luck Mike
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Thanks Biker, that sounds like a good plan. Mine ( "meat hooks" ) aren't exactly little either. You know what they say " Big hands , big gloves. :laugh:
I plan on pulling the tcase off and bringing out the engine and auto trans together, seems to be the way to do it. Someday we'll have to get together and compare turbos.
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I'm going to Moab in the spring, meet ya there 8)
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Going to the EJS ? If you are I can tell you where the term "meat hook" came from.....
Ed
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obd1 or 2?
what are you doing with the old lump?
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OBD 1, but I have all the parts for the OBD2, oil pan, sensor etc. Not sure what I'm gonna do with it. Sure would make a Sammy run nice ;) It needs valve guide seals, has a rear main seal leak and disty housing leak, but still runs great, complete with intake and fuel injection.
Gotta get everything finished up and ready for Rousch. I've been working on it a little bit each day when I have time and my hands aren't killing me too much. It's real close to coming out, got the turbo system out, cleaned up and addressed some small issues. Rad, fan shroud, alt, starter, ac and intake brace all out. Fluids all drained, wiring harness disconnected and outa the way. Got a few small things left, drain and disconnect tcase, shift linkage and cable, fuel lines, heater hoses and that's about it. The new engine is finished and painted up real purdy sitting on the stand waiting to join the trans once I fix a couple of leaks in it. Did I say I HATE OIL LEAKS!?
Still got to convince one of my buddies to help me when it's tome to actually pull it, that and try and find a engine hoist on craigs list. Inquired about renting one and they want $40 a day! I've seen 'em for sale on CL for as cheap as $75, so figured I'd try and buy one and sell it when I''m finished with it.
Looking forward to getting the old engine out and cleaning the engine bay of all the leaked oil and accumulated dried mud.
I'm going to replace the starter while I'm in there, as well as all the hoses, especially the heater hoses. They're such a bitch to get to. I'm sure I'll forget something that will jump up to bite me later :laugh:
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So last night I finished pulling the intake and the remainder of the wiring and hoses and found my " transmission leak " is actually oil running down the engine and dripping on the front of the trans. The distributor housing is leaking like a sieve,and the back of the valve cover doing the same thing. Turns out the trans only needs a seal at the shift shaft which is completely accessable from underneath and outside without pulling anything.
If I can leave the trans in pulling and replacing the engine will be a much easier job. Anybody ever pull an engine out of one of these leaving the auto trans in the truck? I know aligning the torque converter will be harder but not having to drain and pull the tcase and remove everything associated with it and the trans will save me a bunch of time and effort. I've also got a hold of a chain hoist which I can support from my shop rafters and lift the engine almost straight up. My buddy has used it to pull various V8's out of his collection of hot rods easily using the same method. He never pulls the trans too unless it's going to be serviced. I know Sky mentioned not pulling the trans too, anybody else?
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Lining up the splines on the torque conv is no different than lining up the splines on a clutch, easier even.
I also thought my rear seal was shot, but like your engine, it was the dist housing.
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It is quite easy to leave the trans behind. Undo the 3 bolts holding the tc to flexplate and push tc towards trans until it stops, take out top 2 bell bolts and starter etc. Lift engine up until bell touches firewall then block up trans with jack or blocks. Undo last 2 bell bolts and wiggle motor forward and out. Motor mounts may hang up a little if they are still on. To install just reverse procedure and when you have bell bolted up then just slide tc forward and line up the 3 bolts. Note, don't tighten these 3 until you have them all in. Good luck Mike
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Why thank you both gentlemen, and I use that term loosely ;) No, really thanks, I just needed the confidence booster to go ahead and do it. So far everything is going along pretty smoothly, even with the occasional oil spillage. Decided to go ahead and rig up a temporary scaffold with a chain fall, outside the garage, to make sure I have enough height. I don't think a cherry picker type lift would even work in my garage it has such a low threshold, especially with the door up. Gettin real close. ;D
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Discovered another little issue last night when I went to push the Tracker out of the way to clean up the kitty litter from spilled fluids: Trans wouldn't shift. I though ok, must be it needs power to the ignition safety switch but when I hooked up the battery still no shift out of park. I figure since I've disconnected ALL the wiring, including the three connectors to the trans it's not getting a signal from the ignition. So I'm gonna try plugging them back in, or I just may disconnect both drive shafts.
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Thanks Biker, that sounds like a good plan. Mine ( "meat hooks" ) aren't exactly little either. You know what they say " Big hands , big gloves. :laugh:
I plan on pulling the tcase off and bringing out the engine and auto trans together, seems to be the way to do it. Someday we'll have to get together and compare turbos.
all big meathooks means is that your hooked meat is big also.... >:D
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Discovered another little issue last night when I went to push the Tracker out of the way to clean up the kitty litter from spilled fluids: Trans wouldn't shift. I though ok, must be it needs power to the ignition safety switch but when I hooked up the battery still no shift out of park. I figure since I've disconnected ALL the wiring, including the three connectors to the trans it's not getting a signal from the ignition. So I'm gonna try plugging them back in, or I just may disconnect both drive shafts.
I think there's a brake and ignition switch interlock.
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I just reconnected them loosely and no problem, shifted fine with ignition on. Thanks for the tip ranger.
Finally got the engine out yesterday with the help of a buddy. To pull it I purchased a a lightweight 1 Ton chain fall from the local Harbor Freight and suspended it in my garage rafters using a scrap piece of 4x4" angle iron crossing 3 rafters perpendicularly. Worked great and is light enough to move around the garage easily.
Tip for pulling engine and leaving trans in: SUPPORT BOTH ENDS OF TRANSMISSION. Not fun trying to jack up a fallen trans/tcase combo and line up all the mounting holes! Luckily it didn't mess up any linkage.
Once we got the old engine out it was quite obvious where all the oil had been coming from, the rear main seal was SHOT. It must have been leaking badly for quite a while and everything back there was SOAKED in oil and oil/mud mixture. The inside of the flywheel had a 1/4" thick layer of puddy like substance glued to it's entire circumference. Had to scrape it off with a gasket scraper and it came off like sections of wheel weights. But, the good news was that's all that was leaking, trans is fine aside from the aformentioned shift shaft seal. I took the opportunity to soak the entire engine compartment and trans with Simple Green and pressure washed it removing accumulated oil and grease, as well as dried mud I've been carrying around for years. Having clean parts and a clean engine bay should make everything go back together easier.
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Doh, I forgot that you don't need to undo tranny from cross member, so sowwy :angel:
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Yep, learned that the hard way :P. Getting all the parts refinished and ready to go back in. When my buddy and I pulled the engine I had previously removed the single nut from the top of each of the rubber mounts and was going to pull it that way. Of course it wouldn't come straight up or out and he suggested that when I go to put it ( engine ) back I should attach all the mounts to the block first INCLUDING the part that bolts to the chassis with the 3 bolts. That way it should just drop down flat. Makes sense to me.
I need to stop by my buddies shop and have them weld in a bung to my oil pan to receive a 90 degree AN10 fitting for my turbo drain. I'm going to try and get rid of all that scavenge pump stuff. Now that I've got the turbo oiling under control shouldn't need it. Simplify.
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Whats the preferred way to install the engine, intake manifold and accessories ( PS and AC ) attached ? or build it up once it's in? I know getting to all the intake manifold hardware was a bitch, same with the mounts for the power steering pump and ac compressor. It would sure be easier to install that stuff while it's on the engine stand. If I have to build it up after install at least it wont be soaked in oil and grime.
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I usually put the engine together as much as I can before going in, I usually leave the p/s pump with the truck as it's one less mess from opening another line. A/C stays with the truck also so I don't have to recharge it. Just leave the intake brace off so you can put the wiring harness back in. I leave the 3 hole motor mount plate on the motor, makes it a little wider going in but not that bad.
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Cool, sounds like a plan.
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Got all my welding mods done, new AN 10 fitting for the turbo drain on the oil pan, which will connect to a 90 degree AN10 fitting off the turbo hose drain, and for good measure another AN10 drain and cap on the auto trans pan. I had previously used one of those drill and bolt drain plugs on the trans pan and it ALWAYS leaked, and because it stuck up an inch inside the pan it still left about a quart of fluid even after "draining". Now that puppy will completely drain leaving nothing in the pan to spill when dropped. Just waiting on a couple of new parts to be delivered and she'll be ready to go back in.
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soon it will be time for shakedown/breakdown !
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Hopin' so! Doing my damdest to make it ready for Rousch. I will need to get in some break in miles before that though.
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what parts are you waiting for?
Aren't you going to post pics of your sano-clean engine bay? >:D :laugh:
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Still waiting on a couple of replacement coolant hoses and even though I powerwashed the engine bay it still looks like a 20 year old, off road drivin vehicle ( meaning faded and missing paint ), but I will post up a pic of my sano new engine soon.
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New engine and what I found when I pulled the old one.
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looks great!
LOTS of work, huh?
Hopefully you guys get it back in place today; betcha can't wait to hear it spring to life!
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OOOHHHHHHH Shiney, me likey >:D
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I'm gonna subtitle this : ALL DRESSED UP AND NOWHERE TO GO: :(
Man did I F up. I never thought to take into account the cranks may be different between my 95 with 3 speed auto trans, and the crank in the 98 ( with unknown trans )I completely rebuilt. Like an ass, I assumed they were the same...
Turns out the ID of the hole in the end of the crankshaft on the new motor (98) is 16.36mm while the same hole in the old (95) crankshaft end is 20.97mm. We didn't realize it until a third party showed up to help and got under the truck to see what was holding up the engine and trans from coupling completely and even he couldn't figure it out. So we pulled the motor back out and started to really look, and that's when we discovered the difference. The centering nub in my torque converter is MUCH bigger than the hole in the end of the crank where it should fit. TC centering nub measures 20.75 at it's widest diameter. There is also a difference in the off set of the flex plate. The flex plate will bottom against the mounting bosses of the torque converter before the trans and engine are completely joined. F*#!!!!
I measured everything once we got the engine back out ( F AGAIN!) and the difference in depth from the oil seal housing to the outside edge of the crank where the flex plate bolts is also significant: old measures 7.86mm, new is 6.09mm.
So now I have a real dilemma: try and find a flex plate/torque converter that will mate between my 3speed auto and this 98 crankshaft, or tear the engine apart and have the old crank ground and refit with new bearings to install in the new block, or rebuild the bottom end of my old engine and put the fresh head on it. what a pita.
So, anyone done this newer to older swap and know what fits? Help :(
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Wow, that sucks ass Mike. I don't have any good advice for this or bad advice for that matter. I might be a dumb ass but would it be possible to open up the hole in the end of the crank an make your old flex plate fit? Maybe if you could get a couple detail pics it would help us stimulate our brain cells.
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I'll try and put some pics up tomorrow. We did think about opening up the crank hole to fit the torque converter, but then we'd still have the issue of the different offsets of the way the flex plate fits the torque converter. Too many mods to make, maybe. I've put out some posts on a couple of boards, maybe someone knows a way, might be as simple as getting the correct tc and flex plate, might be a hole cans of worms I've opened up. I'm just gonna sleep on it and go for a ride on my Harley tomorrow, the weather is supposed to be real nice.
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Is there part of a pilot bearing in there?
The hole in the crank of my 98" kick is 30mm
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We all looked it over real good and there didn't seem to be any type of pilot bearing in the end of the crank. Is yours an auto or manual? Second question, why would the ends of the crankshafts be different anyway? They're both 16 V 1.6's. And 30mm? I really have to go out and remeasure it again. Now I'm really confused. ??? I got 20mm ( aprox ) for my 96, that's a BIG difference.
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deep breaths!
Hope there is a easy answer to this.
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Any of those Trackicks your workin on John happen to be a 4 speed auto?
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We all looked it over real good and there didn't seem to be any type of pilot bearing in the end of the crank. Is yours an auto or manual? Second question, why would the ends of the crankshafts be different anyway? They're both 16 V 1.6's. And 30mm? I really have to go out and remeasure it again. Now I'm really confused. ??? I got 20mm ( aprox ) for my 96, that's a BIG difference.
I have a 5spd, but also have a 96 auto engine at the shop and it also has a 30mm pilot hole. I can not see Suzuki making two different crankshafts for 5spd or auto trans applications. Every cross reference shows them being interchangable. I could see them adding a sleeve to change the pilot opening, but not two different machining processes.
The pilot bearing specs are thus,
Clutch Pilot Bearing I.D. : 10 mm
Clutch Pilot Bearing O.D. : 30 mm
Clutch Pilot Bearing Width : 9 mm
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Also, IIRC there was a spacer between the flexplate and crankshaft on the 96', it looked like a large washer with the bolthole pattern.
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Also, IIRC there was a spacer between the flexplate and crankshaft on the 96', it looked like a large washer with the bolthole pattern.
That washer is present on other years as well, I think it adds rigidity to the center of the flex plate.
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That washer/spacer is far too thin and small in dia to provide any rigidity, it is merely a spacer.
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Look very close at the end of the crankshaft. I have not seen a difference in the end of the cranks between a 5 speed, 3 speed, or 4 speed in a 1.6 trackick. There is a bushing, that fits in the end of the crank on 3 speed trackicks (and probably 4 speeds, I don't remember for sure though). If the crank has anything sticking out of the center of it, then it is a bushing and you need to pull it out (it may be stuck in there good). The end of the crank should be an "innie".
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Color me embarrassed :-[ went out this morning after a good nights sleep and took a GOOD look at everything again, including my old engine and after giving it a close look I decided to take a pair of smooth jawed channel locks and see if the end of the crank would twist, and off it came , right into my hand, the elusive " spacer " with all the correct dimensions. Funny how three experienced mechanics couldn't figure that out. :P Once that dilemma was solved all I had to do then was figure out why the torque converter wouldn't fully seat. After crawling into the engine compartment with a flashlight I finally figured that out too. 2 large slots in the tc fit into two large tangs in the trans. The TC will go on and feel seated, but if you don't line up all 3 sets of teeth, small splined shaft, then larger splined shaft then the two big teeth, it's not in all the way. Took a few tries but finally got that too, and that solved all the fitment issues. Now engine is in, mated to trans, bolted down and all wiring is connected. Heater hoses done, and next is to begin installing the accessories, starter, alt, ps pump, ac compressor and such and lastly the turbo system. ;D Gettin there ! Thanks everyone for your input on this and sorry for wasting your time. Lets hope it runs as good as it looks.
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Right on Mike, ;D good to hear that you're getting it sorted out. Sometimes tired eyes can be more trouble than the thing we are trying to fix. Been having the same kinda luck working on my tow rig lately. Maybe we are just getting old ;)
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went out this morning after a good nights sleep and took a GOOD look at everything again,
Well there you go.
Bob's your Uncle. ;)
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Glad we were able to steer ya in the general correct direction.
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Thanks Guys, gettin it together a bit at a time.
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...is it soup, yet?
Did you bust that thing off? She a runner?
Does she go?
wink, wink, nudge, nudge..'a wink is as good as a nod to a blind horse'
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Only an old fuck would use a reference from a faces song :laugh: Gettin close, only got an hour or 2 a night to work on it. Going to pick up some new belts tomorrow and 1 replacement AN3 oil line. Pretty much all that's left is replacing the seal on the shift shaft of the trans, droppin the turbo back in ( I test fit it and pulled it back out to finish up tidying up some wiring and oil line), put the disty cap and wires on, drop in some new plugs, fill all the fluids and connect the battery. If it aint runnin by Friday I'm slacking. ;D
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Only an old fuck would use a reference from a faces song :laugh:
If it aint runnin by Friday I'm slacking. ;D
even older, Monty Python.....
we will hold ya too it! Friday!
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Damn you guys are tough ( and OLD ) :laugh: Ran into a minor issue last night, went to put the belts and fan back on and the ac/power steering belt seem to long? WTF? I'm thinking there are two positions to mount the PS pump on the bottom and I may have used the wrong one. Figures, work 12 hours then go home and go back to work. I may be just too tired to concentrate. Gonna have another look at it tonight. I've really been taking my time, every nut, bolt, bracket and accessory has been cleaned, painted, wire wheeled, an or/ replaced. New starter and alternator ( thanks to Auto Zone life time free replacement ) all new hoses, cleaned up all wiring etc. what I really need is a good 4 hours straight to get it done. Maybe I'll call in sick tomorrow. >:D
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to get as old as we are, you have to be tough, buddy!
you can get a different belt length; the book they have will show all sizes up and down from stock = easy
you must be tired! I thought you were not working ATM?
Friday's coming....SLACKER! ;D
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Damn you guys are tough ( and OLD ) :laugh:
Just remember, youth and endurance will never overcome age and treachery.......
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Damn you guys are tough ( and OLD ) :laugh: Ran into a minor issue last night, went to put the belts and fan back on and the ac/power steering belt seem to long? WTF? I'm thinking there are two positions to mount the PS pump on the bottom and I may have used the wrong one. Figures, work 12 hours then go home and go back to work. I may be just too tired to concentrate. Gonna have another look at it tonight. I've really been taking my time, every nut, bolt, bracket and accessory has been cleaned, painted, wire wheeled, an or/ replaced. New starter and alternator ( thanks to Auto Zone life time free replacement ) all new hoses, cleaned up all wiring etc. what I really need is a good 4 hours straight to get it done. Maybe I'll call in sick tomorrow. >:D
Yes, there are 2 positions that you can mount the PS pump in.
One is just a hole for the bolt (making the PS pump non-adjustable). You use this position, when you have AC, and then use the AC compressor to adjust belt tension.
The other position is a slot for the bolt. You use this position, when you have just PS, so you can use the PS pump to adjust belt tension.
The slot is farther out on the bracket, than the hole. So if you have the bolt in the slot, instead of the hole, then that would make the belt too short, not too long. I'd guess they gave you the wrong belt. From my experience, the belt is a PITA to get on, when you have both AC and PS (the belt is just barely long enough to slip/pry over the pulleys, with the AC compressor loosened as much as it will loosen).
I guess if you really think the belt is too long, and you don't want to get another one, you could move the PS pump to the slot. Between the PS pump and the AC compressor being able to take up slack, you should be able to run a belt that is considerably longer than a stock one.
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Got it, just moved the bolt to the slot and it did indeed easily take up the slack. Must have made some changes when building the turbo I just plain forgot. I had the PS unit out on the bench for some badly needed maintenance, it was also leaking and I wanted to remove it from the mount and fix everything. Just forgot to look at the mounting before I stripped it. Put back in the wrong hole. I know " that's what she said."
How about age and CRS in my case. CRS = can't remember shit :laugh:
Got home from work again last night at 7:30 and after having a bit of dinner and shower worked on it for another hour. Finished installing the alt, ps and ac with all the belts, rad hoses, fan and shroud, alc/h20 injector pump, and lines. I'l be able to pick up the replacement oil line I ordered for my turbo today. With any luck I'll get home before 7pm and get some time to work on it.
John, Yeah, I've been back at work since monday the 8th, with braces for my left and right hands that make actually working a joke. I can only where them when I'm driving, which is a lot of the time, but when wrenching I have to take them off to hold a tool. Kind of defeats the purpose of having the brace in the first place. Workmans comp Dr. put me back to work after 2 weeks but with a bunch of restrictions, which if followed would make it impossible to actually DO The JOB. Fuckin' idiiots. I'm really just trying to maintain and protect my territory so I don't get replaced. At my age, yeah bring on the old fart jokes, it's damn near impossible to find another job. Between the job and the Tracker my hands are taking a real beating. Thank god for vicodin. Yeah, to get this old and fucked up you do need to be tough :laugh:
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tell me about it...I still cannot move 2 fingers on L hand and have more surgery coming!
Oh, and since it's Friday; she must be a runner by now, eh? :P
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Bentparts
I have been off hunting for a month and have been reading your build since I got back, and have been having a good chuckle over it. This seems to happen to me every time I have had my V6 out, and while my hands aren't meat hooks there wasn't enough room for the motor when I started. And here I have been kicking myself when I spend a nights work trying to find the belt that fit when I removed everything, only to figure out it is mounted in wrong holes (while knowing YOU don't have that problem).
I hope you redeem your status and I get to hear it purr, or at least cough roughly today.
I saw you mentioned that you might try to make Moab this year, hope you do. Seems that might be the place to draw and meet those I only know by their monikers. We had three rigs (all family) go down there last year and had a good time (other than break downs), but meeting & greeting seems to improve times.
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Well it's saturday morning and I still have some work to do. got home from work at 7:45 last night and worked for about an hour and a half on it. Slept in this morning for some badly needed rest. It took me most of that 1.5hrs to R+R that F"N trans shifter seal. That bitch just wouldn't come out, and when it finally did I had probably done more damage to the seal housing that will make it leak worse. :laugh:
All I have left to do is put in the plugs and wires ( marked 'em this time so I don't mix 'em up in my feeble state ) install the intake /turbo tubing, fill all the fluids, attach the battery leads and see if it'll fire up.
One thing that I've been thinking about is oil at start up. I used a quality assembly lube ( Royal Purple ) and slathered everything real good, but didn't remember to prime the oil pump, if this is even necessary. I hope it isn't going to come back and bit me in the ass.
Another thing that's giving me some trouble is the trans TV ( kickdown) cable. Minor issue, but I can't remember how it mounts to the throttle. I seem to have way too much cable left when I try and hook it up and the manual is less than useless in this regard. Can anyone with an auto snap a pic of the routing into the throttle ( 16 V ) and post it up here ? I need some help on this one.
Birdhunter, yeah it's always the little things that seem to slow down the whole forward progress thing. I would really love to make Moab one of these times, I just have to work on getting the two weeks off in a row from my slave driver employers.
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pull the coil wire and run starter for 20 secs to build pressure first...
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Damn you guys are tough ( and OLD ) :laugh:
Just remember, youth and endurance will never overcome age and treachery.......
Oh yeah, that's why all the "old " men are marched off to fight the wars :laugh:
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In the immortal words of Dr. Frankenstein....................................... " It's Alive !!!! "
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Damn you guys are tough ( and OLD ) :laugh:
Just remember, youth and endurance will never overcome age and treachery.......
Oh yeah, that's why all the "old " men are marched off to fight the wars :laugh:
Sorry, ya got it wrong there junior, the OLD FARTS start the wars and then send you young bucks to some god-for-saken hellhole to fight,
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We need a " sarcastic " emoticon. I was just being a smart ass, age and treachery can only be attained by surviving youth :laugh:
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In the immortal words of Dr. Frankenstein....................................... " It's Alive !!!! "
very good!
how's it sound/run?
Drive it yet?
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In the immortal words of Dr. Frankenstein....................................... " It's Alive !!!! "
Took it for it's first test drive and engine is tight, quiet and not puking any fluids anywhere so that is a good thing. Oil pressure seems a bit high but everything needs time to break in. Best of all the engine doesn't make any clicking, tapping or otherwise non happy sounds, except for the injectors being more noticeable now ( fuel pressure is bumped up to about 50lbs with the bigger injectors. ) For the first time since I've had this thing it's quiet. Got a couple of small issues to deal with:
1. It's a bit sluggish off the bottom. I set the timing at 4degrees btc ( retarded a bit for the turbo ) but I think I can advance it more because the first test on full boost ( which was a bout 5 minutes into the first test ride :laugh: ) it jumps right up to 8 lb and had no ping or detonation whatsoever. From idle to about 3K it's pretty slow to build power. I'm wondering if I have the disty 1 tooth off, it does start almost as soon as the key is turned.
2. I must have jacked up my kick down ( TV ) cable when my trans almost fell out. I figured out why the cable is too long to fit in it's mount correctly, it's not retracted all the way back into the trans. I don't remember messing with it when I did the shift seal, but I's possible I did F something up. Got to take another look at everything.
Other than those two issues, and a power steering unit that seems slow to come back to full assist after I bled it, it seems quite happy and so am I. Any ideas on the sluggish bottom end behavior or TV cable issues ?
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A sluggish bottom end is inherent to most boosted engines, it just isnt building enough boost down low, I would suggest removing as much resistance within the intake and exhaust as possible. With the AWD Talons we would also crush the BOV solenoid slightly in order to build boost lower.
What turbo did you utilize?
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Im sure that sluggish up until 3k is due to that initial 4deg timing. I am set at 10deg initial
My timing map is by no means perfect in my megasquirt but I pull timing about 1deg per psi over 100kpa. I have not been able to find a stock tracker timing map to go off of so my timing is pretty linear across the RPM range.
I added a screenshot of the log viewer. The tables on the right are my active fuel (top) and spark (bottom) settings. The small blue line surrounded by light yellow boxes is where im CURRENTLY at while driving in reference to the center line in the large graph. In other words: boost at 162kpa (almost 9psi) throttle position 92%, A/F of 14.86, RPM 3900 etc etc. Also for what its worth, I believe megasquirt is available in a plug and play version if you swapped over the complete harness.
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A sluggish bottom end is inherent to most boosted engines, it just isnt building enough boost down low, I would suggest removing as much resistance within the intake and exhaust as possible. With the AWD Talons we would also crush the BOV solenoid slightly in order to build boost lower.
What turbo did you utilize?
Another work around is If you have an electronic boost controller, you can have the wastegate 100% open and slowly close as you gain rpms and reach your target boost. More of a super charged characteristic. Another factor is it just "feels" sluggish in comparison. Idle to somewhere around 3000rpm is going to feel like a stock 16v tracker until the turbo spools and locks you into the seat!
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...just some random info since i can see just about everything this engine/turbo is doing. When i stomp the throttle rpms climb... once i get to 100kpa (which is zero boost/vacuum) here are some results:
In first gear:
MAP: 99 RPM: 3870
I reached a peak boost of 151kpa/7.21psi at 5280RPM (timing near 28deg and moving towards 25)
Second gear:
MAP 100 RPM: 3491
Peak boost 154kpa/7.63psi at 4100RPM (timing near 28deg and moving towards 25)
..keep in mind the turbo is building up at a lower RPM but above is where it actually starts applying pressure.
I have a few other areas where boost starting coming in at 2500rpms. I could have been going up a hill or etc. But basically looking at averages my setup with a T25 from a Saab (.46/.54 i think it was) takes about 1000rpms to be at my max boost.
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Intercooled?
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as said; bump the timing a bit.
you don't need power steering; you an TOUGH old guy! ;D
congrats on the rebuild working out!
ps- stay off the boost a while, eh? ;)
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as said; bump the timing a bit.
you don't need power steering; you an TOUGH old guy! ;D
congrats on the rebuild working out!
ps- stay off the boost a while, eh? ;)
You probably already know but again, I would stay safe on the initial timing until you have a way to control timing under boost like and msd box or MS. What u pull from initial timing will give you a safe zone as u increase boost but will rob you everywhere else... which IMO is not worth the trade off. A hole in the piston or melted valve sure ain't worth going through all what u just did again!!!
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A sluggish bottom end is inherent to most boosted engines, it just isnt building enough boost down low, I would suggest removing as much resistance within the intake and exhaust as possible. With the AWD Talons we would also crush the BOV solenoid slightly in order to build boost lower.
What turbo did you utilize?
It wasn't nearly this sluggish before the engine swap WITH the same turbo setup installed, and there are no restrictions in the system, my intake and exhaust in and out of the turbo are as short as physically possible, and when it does get on boost it runs great. Pretty sure it's a timing issue, either cam or dist. Either way I'll get it sorted. All I need is time ::)
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Intercooled?
air to liquid, same setup I've been running for the last 5 years. Recently ( 1 year ) added h20/alc injection at 3psi + boost for extra cooling/octane boost. Works great too.
Zuki1018, I followed your build up and mega squirt threads, would probably go the new controller route but mine seems to work just fine up to 7/8 lbs and most of the time I rarely exceed 5/6. My last engine was already experiencing piston slap and leaky valve guide seals when I got the truck with 63k on it, turbo'ed it at about 69k, ran it that way until the swap at 120k with the thing still actually running great. If it wasn't for the oil puking oil out the rear main, and valve guide seals beyond just an annoyance it'd still be in there. The turbo didn't seem to hurt anything. I'm gonna try advancing the timing by 2 degree increments until I begin to experience any ping then back off.
John, I NEED power steering. The only thing that's tough about me is my attitude, for others to take :laugh:
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OK, one down two to go. Checked the timing and it was at 0! Must have slipped when I tightened down the disty bolt. Put it at 6 runs great! Now on to the last two issues: Still no power steering assist, and I've " bled " it three times. Must not be doing it right, and that friggin TV cable. But compared to what I've done in the last week it seems like cake. :laugh:
I did drop the trans pan ( easy and clean with the new drain ) and took a look at where the TV cable comes into the trans, didn't look like anything was amiss, but hell, I'm no trans mechanic. I could be looking at something there and it could be all f"d up for all I know. The cable attachment point outside the trans is fine too. I removed the holding tab and everything seems fine there too. Still have about an inch of excess inner cable at the mounting point on the throttle housing. I kinda need some help with this one.
The Power steering thing is beginning to concern me. I actually like the way it drives on the highway without it, It's easier to keep it straight :laugh: BUT tight turns at slow speeds , especially the way I drive in the woods, usually one handed, it feels like turning a truck! God help me I am getting frail :laugh:
I do remember something that may be contributing too the TV cable thing: when changing the shifter shaft seal, I still had the truck in neutral, tcase also in neutral so I could move the thing around a bit. I did manage to " shift " the trans while tightening the locknut on the shaft, but I just shifted it back and thought nothing of it. Now I really wondering. Any takers?
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as said; bump the timing a bit.
you don't need power steering; you an TOUGH old guy! ;D Yeah, like bad meat or old shoe leather :laugh:
congrats on the rebuild working out! Thanks Bud!
ps- stay off the boost a while, eh? ;) Kinda hard to, it WANTS to make boost! I am trying to break it in somewhat, but I usually put a few easy miles on my engines, dump the break in oil, and then drive it like I'm going to from then on. Seems to have worked on my bike race engines and my old Harley just fine. We'll see 'eh? ;)
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Zuki1018, I followed your build up and mega squirt threads, would probably go the new controller route but mine seems to work just fine up to 7/8 lbs and most of the time I rarely exceed 5/6. My last engine was already experiencing piston slap and leaky valve guide seals when I got the truck with 63k on it, turbo'ed it at about 69k, ran it that way until the swap at 120k with the thing still actually running great.
..and I yours! You cant argue with what worked. Did you ever move over to a wideband at least?
Mine spits some smoke also. Blame it on my 1st ever engine rebuilt/break-in I suppose. Its tolerable for now though.
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No, I haven't made the switch to wideband yet. The guys I get most of my turbo help from down here keep suggesting it too, mostly for tuning purposes. They have a shop that specializes in building race Hondas,( and some oddball others ) and roll cages and custom fab work. His personal Acura runs low 9's and has dynoed well over 900hp. It's more a money and time thing, I don't have the money, and can't find the time if I did :laugh: They are more than willing to help with it if I did, they think the Turbo Tracker is very cool ! I'm lucky to know these guys, they have been invaluble in their help and advise. When I first built this thig, I sought advise from them and they thought the whole project was prettty interesting. They have also been personal friends for years and before the "Honda " thing they were into bikes, custom choppers, sport bikes and drag racers, my real background. Good to have friends with skills.
UPDATE: I just figured the TV cable out. It only accuates the valve in the trans when you apply a good stomp at the pedal, and there is SUPPOSED to be a bit of cable extending out the back of the clip thing attached to the throttle. Hooked it up that way and it works fine. whew!
Now I'm off to pull the PS pump and try and figure out why it wont pump. I may have gotten a bit of debris in one of the lines and it's sticking a valve.
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Damn. Had to pull the AC compressor back out last night to access the power steering pump again. Still no " pumping " from the pump. Tech support from the PS Pump supplier said probably a stuck valve on the suction side so next thing is to disconnect line and try and fish out the piston with a magnet. So close to being done I can taste it! This thing is being a real tease.
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No, I haven't made the switch to wideband yet.
MAKE THE SWITCH! ...although I couldn't afford mine right away during the build... it was always on the to-do list. IMO wide-band monitor to turbo is like a gas/oil/temp monitor to a non-turbo.
My first ever turbo when i was 22 was a 82 280zx and I could barely afford tires lol. After the boost bug set (and a tax return lol) in at a max of 10psi, I swapped the T3 out for a T3/T4 and plumbed in a 7th injector with a electric pressure switch. 15psi with a 3.70 rear and auto was pretty damn fun back then!
I miss my z-car days!!
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It ( wide band and Haltech Computer ) are both on my wish list. Gotta win the lotto first :laugh:
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Can you believe this shit? TWO power steering pumps neither made pressure, both from the same rebuilder. I got a replacement pump from the people who sold me the first one ( purchased online/ebay) and it also had issues, no pressure. So I finally gave up and bought one locally at Auto Zone and viola, works fine. Whats even funnier is I ordered the pump from Auto Zone, came in the next day, and was from the SAME rebuilder as the first two !! WTF?? ??? Somebody at that shop must have been hung over the day the first two were rebuilt.
FINALLY this thing is bolted back together and I AM FINISHED in the engine compartment. Drove it last night for the first time with everything functioning and it is nice, smooth, quiet ( except for the exhaust which seems a bit louder ) plenty of power. It comes on boost at about 2200rpms with just the slightest load and power is substantially better down low. Can't wait to get a few more miles on it so I can really flog the engine and have some fun. Worth the effort. ;D 8)
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very good!
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Great to hear you have the beasty running!
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Thanks guys, but not so fast. So, finally got everything buttoned up and was gonna head out early this afternoon for a shakedown ride out in the Pines when moving down my driveway the battery lamp lights up. Now what, ??? I pull backup to the garage and put a multi meter on the battery and only 12.4V running. Check the alternator leads and nothing, thing is dead. This is the NEW replacement for my GM Delco Remy I got from Auto Zone just last week with a total of about 15 miles /30 minutes running time on it. These re-manufactured parts are really a crap shoot. First the PS pumps and now this. My last one was as reliable as a hammer, noisy but reliable. At least I had the install fresh in my memory so I had it out and back at AZ in about a half hour. I made them test the replacement before I brought it home. Installed the replacement and took it out for it's maiden woods ride with the new engine and she ran flawlessly. Finally! YEAH ;D Now got to clean up the shop tomorrow, get a couple of pics and prepare for the big storm coming. I sure hope this is the end of replacing replacement parts for a while. Damn, I forgot, my PS res is weeping along the welded seam. I'm looking for a bigger one to replace it, But that's a whole new project. For later.
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So-
changing out working ps pump and working alternator for re-man = Not So Good?
That'll teach you to leave well enough alone! ;)
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So-
changing out working ps pump and working alternator for re-man = Not So Good?
That'll teach you to leave well enough alone! ;)
[/quote
The old ps pump was leaking out of front and back, alt was whining but working. Should have kept them both :laugh:
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Good to hear that you got it going 8) I've been having the same luck with reman parts lately and even bought a new carb only to find it full of dirt >:( What ever happened to quality?
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What ever happened to quality?
Corporate America outsourced it all!
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I have never had much luck with AutoZone remans,,,,I dont think they are even checked out after being remand, LOL.
I recently had issues with a remand calipers piston cocking in the bore, we measured the bore and then the piston and they were both well out of spec and the bore was not even close to being round. Obviously hand honed!
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American pride and quality are going downhill fast. I guess it's up to us to bring it back. My theory is the constant push for more worker productivity is what causes things like this remanufactured parts quality issue. Push people hard enough and failures are bound to happen, due to lack of attention to detail, overwork and just plain resentment of management. Just my 2 cents.
Aside from the problems with the alt and ps pump, everything now seems to be working fine. I'm still cautious about the quality of those aftermarket pistons but they seem quiet and are keeping the combustibles and oil where they should be. Only putting a bunch of miles on it will tell for sure. I'll be taking some pics later today ( off work due to the storm ) and posting up. Thanks everyone for your help, suggestions and support. I'm also going to be starting a new thread on some power steering mods I want to make.
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Finally got out to the Pine Barrens to give it a good run and the little beast runs great. It's seems to be getting a bit better fuel economy too. Got to the 340 mile mark today and when I got home I dumped the break in oil ( straight 30 wt non detergent ) and refilled with Castrol 10/40 and a bit of Lucas, new filter of course. Not much on the drain plug magnet, small bit of stuff but nothing of concern and the old oil looked good too. Here's a couple of pics of the cleaned up engine compartment:
I was able to remove my scavenge pump with all it's related hoses and such and the oil control needle valve and guage going to to the turbo in favor of a simple inline restrictor, cleaned up the intake breathers and lost another bunch of hose and fittings there too. Rerouted some coolant hoses for the turbo and heat shielded some others. Moved my alc/h2o injection pump from it's position mounted where the charcol canister used to be to the pocket directly behind the pass side headlight. Access to the alt and belt adjustment are now much easier as is access to under the intake manifold.
Somehow, after installation this engine's fan sits out from the shroud about an inch compared to the old one. I can't seem to find where the difference is, but it makes getting a socket wrench on the crank bolt a real bitch. The engine mounts are slotted and I think I may have bolted it down in it's furthest back position. I've decided I'm just going to cut a notch in the bottom of the shroud for access, to make turning the engine over for valve adjustment and such easier.
Other than that one small issue and waiting for my power steering res parts to arrive she's pretty much buttoned up and ready to have the skid plates bolted back on. Finally. ;D
A couple of pics of the Carranza monument out in the Pine Barrens. In 1928 a Mexican aviator crashed his plane on this spot while making a good will tour of America. The children of his home village in south Central Mexico paid for and gathered this stone and local stone masons cut the individual pieces , then shipped it to this spot to be erected in his honor. It has some cool Mayan influence in it's design.
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Looks awesome Mike >:D I'm jealous
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Thanks Biker, but no need to be, your rig is pretty slick too. ;D