ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Technical Discussion - Beginner / Repair => Topic started by: Pavulon on April 02, 2012, 05:32:36 PM
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So, I want to go with a 3.5'' lift to maintain overall driveability with the stock 1.3L and stock gears, which means I'm not going with any tires over 29's. After looking through forums, websites, etc.. i've learned a few things, but wanted to be sure that I was reading everything correctly before putting in my purchase. I've heard to stay away from the calmini 3.5'' kit, so I wanted to part out a lift myself. I'm fine with spending a bit more to have a solid suspension system that I can beat up on mild off-roading. I'm addicted to speed so I need something that will handle fairly hard taken bumps as I ride across the farm. This was the parts list I had created so far, what else do I need to pull off this lift... My friends are going to help me install as long as I have all the right parts around :D Thanks guys...
Suzuki Samurai Warrior Shackle Reversal Kit (http://www.lowrangeoffroad.com/index.php/warrior-shackle-reversal-kit.html (http://www.lowrangeoffroad.com/index.php/warrior-shackle-reversal-kit.html))
O.M.E. Springs Light/Mid duty front and rear (http://www.lowrangeoffroad.com/index.php/old-man-emu-dakar-leaf-springs.html (http://www.lowrangeoffroad.com/index.php/old-man-emu-dakar-leaf-springs.html))
was told to go light/mid duty cuz the samurai doesnt weigh enough to call for the heavy duty ones.....
also picking up the bushing kit from that same page.....
12 bolts... (http://www.lowrangeoffroad.com/index.php/suzuki-samurai-leaf-spring-bolt-for-aftermarket-shackles-and-bushings.html (http://www.lowrangeoffroad.com/index.php/suzuki-samurai-leaf-spring-bolt-for-aftermarket-shackles-and-bushings.html))
Drop Pitman Arm (http://www.lowrangeoffroad.com/index.php/3-samurai-drop-pitman-arm.html (http://www.lowrangeoffroad.com/index.php/3-samurai-drop-pitman-arm.html))
Skyjacker Hydros (Will figure out exact length needed when I go to purchase)
Is there anything else I need to pull this off?? Bumpstops? Drivetrain spacer? Shock mounts? Sway bar extensions??
Sorry I'm new to this so really don't have any idea other than what research i've done.... if I need any of those parts, can you recommend which ones to purchase? Thanks in advance guys
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17 reads and not a single reply? :( :(
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A guy in my town made his own SPOA lift and his own Z link for steering and he said he gained about 4.5" I know you are looking for 3.5" but making it yourself if you know how could be cheaper and he said his rides/handles so much better. Also you could run up to a 30" tire safely with stock gears and engine, of course you aren't gonna be driving very fast in a samurai in the first place so don't plan on that, just am idea if you want to look at other options
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With only desiring a 3.5" lift, I would stay spring UNDER, you will have a far better handling vehicle since you desire a hotrod vrs a crawler, and dont expect to be going all that fast with a 1.3L either. I would look into a RUF lift with the EMU springs. and steer clear of the shackle reversal contraptions.
You may even consider looking at a sidekick for what you intend to do
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By "fast driving" I really mean about 30 mph through my fields, which I can already achieve, it just beats the hell outta my suspension when I do.... And I've considered the sidekick, but enjoy the niche that is the Samurai... Just so much fun to own something different. Eventually I plan on full motor swap to something crazy, but for now just want to keep from blowing out the leaf springs from under me... I don't mind if its still rough (its practically an ATV) but I just wanna know I can drive it like I am without absolutely destroying stuff.... I agree with talon that the SPUA is better for what I wanna do, I've looked into the SPOA kits and just werent impressed... why do you say steer clear of the shackle reversal's? I've seen a lot of good things posted about them? Only negative I've seen was slightly losing approach angle, and its not like I wheel/crawl rocks where I'm located....
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So, after doing a bit more research from what Talon had said, I'm looking at possibly going with the RUF kit from Rocky Road, O.M.E front/rear springs, and possibly the 2'' longer shackles from RRO.... Talon, would that setup be better than the Shackle Reverse? If so, why? just completely curious. Sorry again, I'm new to all this, being this is my first project car I've ever owned, and my father isn't much help :P
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A shackle reverse suspension conversion is one of the best conversions that can be done to ANY solid axle vehicle.
It will defiantly improve your directional stability...
35 years in this business . We ALLWAYS do a shack reverse on every solid axle leaf spring rig we build.
The ruf is a good conversion, if you feel the need to add to the wheel base of your rig.
If not, stick to your origanal plan....
You may want to look into a set of brake lines. You will be right at the margin for needing them....Boxcar....
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If you are mainly crawling and going slow then yes a shackle reversal works fantastic, but you say you are a speed demon, so that was why I suggested no in regards to the shackle reversal.
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Just finished a SR on my tin top, and i love it, no other changes so far but saving my pennies for the OME springs, drives great !!
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Thanks again for all the responses... What are the pros and cons of the shackle reverse Boxcar?? One of my friends claims that the reverse system puts a bit more stress although allowing a bit more flex... As of now I'm not doing anything that requires a ton of flex, more so abuse, so the least amount of stress on the system the better... Brake lines were actually on my list of to-do's, just forgot to list them, and what are thoughts on the 2'' extended shackles from RRO???? Same issue as shackle reverse?? I know they only give 1'' of lift, but that + 1.5'' OME springs + RUF should give me a fairly nice lift anyways... also, for clarification, I still use the original OME rear springs in the rear when doing this RUF system..correct?
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It has nothing to do with flex, or articulation.
What it does is: By relocating the shackle to the rear of the spring it keeps your axle position in relation to the frame constant.
when moving forward. Ads tons of stability at higher speeds. Also prevents the ( Toco) Spring syndrome caused by smacking your shackles against obstructions when wheeling over obstacles.
Extended shackles are ok as long as you don't go over 1" of added lift with them. (They cause a bunch of side flex)
You may have to adjust your caster angle after installing them.....
The RUF (Rear up front) set up requires you to either run your stock rear springs up front with another set of rear springs in the rear. Or (recommended) run a set of 1976 or later cj5 rears in the rear.
This is a true RUF system.
The OME system is probably just 4 rears....Boxcar...
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It has nothing to do with flex, or articulation.
What it does is: By relocating the shackle to the rear of the spring it keeps your axle position in relation to the frame constant.
when moving forward.
sorry; have to disagree, with all due respect.
With S/R, the wheel will move both upward and rearward...
will be ok w/29's but much larger and you will have to clearance---
RUF is another option, but little to be realized with regard to upgrade in ride quality.
Truly, if you start changing springs/mounts, yj's are the tried & true solution, but you will only see 2" +/- running spua
I have run all three...
budget, fab skills, and motivation also figure into the decision
all aftermarket springs (ome, superlift, skyjacker, whatever-) will be STIFFer than above...
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E coast. You have no clue ....Sorry . I don't mean to be rude.
Standard shack forward when your springs compress your axle moves forward causing wander due to the loss of proper geometry. ( Caster is decreased)
With a shackle reverse your caster increases slightly ( a good thing at speed). With only 1/4 - 1/2" Rear deflection rub is not an issue, especially with a 3.5" lift.
I'm running 33s on my current zuke ...Shack rev. No rub. My FJ 40 , same result. My CJ 5 , same result....ETC. ETC. ETC.
I think if the PO does a bit of research he will find that yours is a very very lonely opinion.....
As to the RUF systems. They actually work pretty well with the SR upgrade. If set up correctly.
I don't like the Jeep eater conversions for a DD. Just to soft. And to many bolted hangers for my taste....
While we have done several YJ conversions in the shop. We allways build the mounts in shop.(all welded frame conversion)
And it's a much more involved process to get the geometry correct....
I like the 1976 CJ5 springs much better.
As I stated earlyer. The PO is on the right track with his originally plan...It's a well thought out upgrade for his needs.....Boxcar....
(http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h423/Boxcar2/023.jpg)
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A Shackle reversal changes the path of the tire upon impact, swinging it back upon flexing instead of forward in a traditional setup. That is why it gives you a better ride going down the road. There is a really good write-up over at http://www.jeeptech.com/susp/elkcahs/index.html (http://www.jeeptech.com/susp/elkcahs/index.html) on some of the pros and con's of the shackle reversal setup.
Pavulon:
If your only going for 29" tires I would look at just the 2.5" OME spring lift. Softer ride then stock, only one part to replace and gives you enough space for 30" tires. My favorite adventure style Samurai builds use this setup to great effect.
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Again, thank you for all the input...
I hadn't actually seen the 2.5'' OME kit until you posted that drone. I typically go through LROF since I've had good experiences with them, and they only offered the 1.5'' OME springs..... with that said, I did manage to find that kit at RRO, and that seems to be the path I am most likely to go. Its either that or a RUF kit... I have yet to really decide. Possibly even a RUF with the 2.5'' OME springs rather than the 1.5'' ones....
I just don't know..... I just want 30'' tires so that there are more options out there for me, not many companies make aggresive tread tires with 29's... I have yet to truly take it offroading and push any limitations I have at this point, but hope to do that next month. I'm going to wait till then to purchase, just to see if I want more articulation/flex. By doing just a 2.5'' lift, and bigger tires I guess I'm not getting much as far as flex goes since the tire will just bottom out in the wheel well anyways....
I just ordered the HD CV .44mm carb and am waiting for that kit to come in as well.... can't wait to get all this on !
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There are only the one kind of OME springs. Some claim (exagerate). They are 1 1/2" not the 2 1/2". Check the part numbers. I have Calmini 2" SR and the OME springs. for a total of 3 1/2"with 235 tires(29") There is no way the OME springs will give you 2 1/2" of lift. you will have to address the steering,shocks, bumpstop and swaybar issues if you go there.
With just the SR and 215's
(http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm217/lv2fsh/STA72981JPGa.jpg)
with SR and OME springs with 235"s
(http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm217/lv2fsh/IMG_0068JPGa.jpg)
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Thanks for the pics, def. gives me a better idea....and RRO doesnt really give a part number.... how's the ride on your new setup? I like the looks of it..... also, any issues w/ the Calmini SR? I've seen a lot of upset posts with their products..... i planned on the pitman arm for steering, shocks i know are a must...what do i need for the bumpstop/swaybar issues if I go that same route?
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The 2 1/2"OME springs on RRO are the same as the 1 1/2" springs on other sites. You won't need the "heavyduty" ones either. They are too stiff unless your carrying a ton of extra weight. No issues with the SR. Been on 3 years. Actually I had a bolt break where it mounts to the frame on the front hanger. I don't know how long it was gone before I noticed it. I just picked up another and a spare(which I still have)at the hardware store. The ride was better with the SR and even better with the springs added.
The bumpstop ext come with the SR, Only really need the front. The sway bar front hangers just need to be extended a little. I just had some round stock(bolt) welded in the middle. I bent down the pinch welds inside the front wheel well with a big hammer. Also the front bumper has some clearance issues. You can trim it but I just built a new winch bumper. If you replace the bumper, you can cut off the hangers and re enforce the frame tube with a piece of pipe sleeved inside it. Some people have put on extended brake lines and front driveshaft extension. I flexed mine out and had plenty of brake line left on the drooped side. As for the driveshaft extension. I have plenty of spline left in the shaft and since the the springs move to the rear, I didn't want to bottom out the shaft on hitting a big bump hard.
If you go this way and have 3 1/2" of lift, I used Gabriel shocks from Autozone. You don't want heavy duty offroad shocks for a Sammy as they don't weigh that much and will ride stiff. If you go to Autozone, the part numbers for the longer shocks are;
Gabriel
rears were #61500
fronts were #69676
I did the drop pitman and added a new Rancho steering stabilizer (I got it free from my kid).
One last thing. With the bigger tires, they would rub the front spring on full turn. The backspace needs to be less to move the tire out to clear. You can get rims that have less backspace or wheel spacers. Being cheap, I flipped the stock wagon wheels, redrilled the valve stem holes,welded over the old ones and ground the edges of the brake drums to get them to seat right. Easier to get new rims.
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(http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/296/dsc0360xa.jpg)
By jpavulon (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/jpavulon) at 2012-04-12
(http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/1124/dsc0357ug.jpg)
By jpavulon (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/jpavulon) at 2012-04-12
This is my rig as it currently stands... already have the aftermarket front bumper so clearance shouldnt be an issue with that... I plan on going w/ 15x8 rims, 2.5'' of backspacing (If i read correctly thats 1.25'' less than stock so that should push them out plenty) with 31x10.5R15 MT Baja Claw Tires... And yes, I planned on just doing the light/med. duty springs... good to know about the calmini SR kit also ! :D
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So.....Sadly after doing a bit more research online, I've found that I'm going to be unable to do a SR kit due to the current setup of my front bumper... As you can see in this pic, I have the front bumper welded via angle iron to the frame...
(http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/6756/dsc0368wc.jpg)
By jpavulon (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/jpavulon) at 2012-04-12
It looks like on the kits I would need access to the circular crossmember running between the boxframe rails.....needless to say, this access is practically non-existent....so much for thinking of everything before doing work.... So I guess i'm back to the drawing board... If I'm going to fit 31 x 10.5's, I'm going to need that 3'' of lift minimum... idk that I'll pull that off with anything besides going SPOA now...
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The spring hangers do kind of rap around the round cross piece. Maybe RUF or 3" lift springs. Maybe even YJ springs. The lift springs I've heard are stiff but the YJ's or rears up front are supposed to ride nice.
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It looked like the RUF kit would still place the mounts forward and straight into the front bumper....I was looking at the RRO 4''er...thoughts on that kit??
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I'd go YJ first. That RRO kit sounds stiff and expensive. Heck I only paid $500.00 for my 88 Sammy. And $1200.00 for the TT with 5 brand new tires.
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Again, anything with the missing link kit, I think will hit my bumper..... It uses longer springs so they have to move forward some, where I really don't have room...
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So....anyone have experience at all w/ the 4''er from RRO????? thoughts?
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You can still do a RUF but I think that no matter what at some point your going to want to be able to remove the bumper. I think I would spend some time making the bumper removable and putting the lift under it that I wanted.
You can do a RUF with shackles or Missing Links. You can buy relocation brackets or redrill the front rear spring hangers. I have 2" Calamini rear springs on the back. If you want to run 30's or 31's it will be no problem. If your interested in everything you need shoot me a PM and I will reply. If you go to ZUWARRIE's site the have a sticky about RUF suspensions with alot of good info too.
I run 34's under mine and drive it daily... Good Luck with your choices.... 8)
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Fair enough...and I've thought about redoing the bumper, but haven't really seen a need to remove it until looking at the lift, as far as the RUF kit compared to the 4''er, I was just interested on inputs based on the RRO?? Haven't seen much about it, but heard a lot of good about Deaver springs previously.
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As far as the research that I have done and in talking with folks I would only have 2 choices... RUF with CJ springs or YJ springs. Mine is Ruf with the OEM rears and aftermarket rear springs and rides really nice. But if I were to do it over I would go with the CJ springs so I could run taller tires with no clearance problems. For you YJ's would be sweet based on your tire size indicated.!!!
CJ springs will provide more lift that the YJ's because they have more arch. YJ's are more flexible and will allow more articulation. Deaver springs will be stiffer and provide less articulation.
Your bumper might be okay with a RUF set up as long as it has the round tube trimmed back to the frame rails on each side. This part and the end caps are what typically will make contact with the tires. Based on what I can see of yours it is flat and angled up for clearance.
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I think that no one is answering about the RRO 4"er because not too many have them. I have never heard of anyone having one and posting about it. Just reading the description, I think it sounds stiff and more for offload than comfort. x2 on redoing the bumper mount. Might as well, you will eventually need to at some point anyway.
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Pavulon:
I have yet another contrary opinion or two for you to chew on.
I have A Breeze Industries (Canada) 4.5" Spring-over lift with a Rocky-road OTT steering system. Your idea about buying a drop-pittman arm will work just as well as my OTT.
I also have a Samurai Rears Up Front (RUF) which I have yet to really determine if it helps the ride quality after 4 years. :o
With the 4.5" lift, I have MORE than enough room for my 30" BFG AT KOs.
Here is some minutia that I didn't spot in my quick read of the thread's posts:
Extended brakelines. You'll need them.
Driveshaft extensions are necessary
Replacement lower shockmounts (often available with the SPOA kit).
Longer shocks. Vendors can recommend what you need based on the SPOA kit that you purchase (or "intend" to purchase).
Oh, and avoid changing the pinion angle when installing SPOA Pads! Mount the new pads on the exact opposite of the axle from the original pads! This means that the spring surface of the old and new pads should be exactly parallel to each other. Screwing around with the pinion angles - especially the front pinion angle - without a thorough understanding of driveshaft geometry can be costly and dangerous.
here are some links that might help you:
http://www.zukikrawlers.com/showthread.php?t=174 (http://www.zukikrawlers.com/showthread.php?t=174)
http://www.zukikrawlers.com/showthread.php?p=295080#post295080 (http://www.zukikrawlers.com/showthread.php?p=295080#post295080)
http://www.zukikrawlers.com/showthread.php?t=6741 (http://www.zukikrawlers.com/showthread.php?t=6741)
found doing a search for brake at Ack's FAQ (see link in my signature).
http://www.4x4wire.com/toyota/tech/driveline/ (http://www.4x4wire.com/toyota/tech/driveline/)
http://www.4xshaft.com/driveline101.html (http://www.4xshaft.com/driveline101.html)
found doing a search for driveshaft at Ack's FAQ (see link in my signature).
I hope that this helps!
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Only one quick question for you ack.....Isn't SPUA a MUCH better setup for high speed manuverability....I live on a 220 acre farm and enjoy racing 4 wheelers around the woods and such....have a few trails cut in... need something that's going to keep me grounded rather than making me even more likely to roll over..... I was thinking 4'' lift and 31x10.5R15 rims.... 2.5'' backspace to push the tires out about 2.25'' from stock....that way I can increase my stance, increase my drivability over some obstacles, without going to extreme on height...If I'm wrong on this whole SPUA thing, please let me know, as I said...I'm new to all this, my projects have also been Honda Coupes, this lil Sammy is quickly converting me to the off-road scene though