ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Suzuki 4x4 Forum => Topic started by: stunt on February 02, 2005, 04:32:31 AM
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I located a 2.7 out of a 2002 XL-7 w/ only 10k on it for $850 + $250 shipping.
The 2.5 seized up at 80k due to the oil pump failing and the wife not pulling over when the oil pressure light came on.
From my previous thread here, I learned that:
* 2.5 and 2.7 have the exact same external dimensions.
* 2.5 ECU should be able to handle the 2.7
Questions:
1. Will I get more power by installing the 2.7 ECU?
2. Will a 2002 2.7 ECU plug into the connector on my 2000 2.5 equipped ride? (ie no harness change needed)
3. Will the y-pipe and cats and other exhaust components from a 2002 XL-7 fit a 2000 Grand Vitara?
I'm trying to preserve the 2.7's 185 hp rating (or perhaps up it a little), so I want to make sure the exhaust flows as freely as possible. I understand that the rating of the 2.5 was upped from 155 to 165 in 2002 by simply employing some of the XL-7 exhaust components.
Does the aftermarket offer exhaust pieces that improve upon the flow of the factory XL-7 components? Any vendor recommendations? Headers, Y-pipe, high flow cats, mufflers, etc.
Thanks!
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I located a 2.7 out of a 2002 XL-7 w/ only 10k on it for $850 + $250 shipping.
The 2.5 seized up at 80k due to the oil pump failing and the wife not pulling over when the oil pressure light came on.
From my previous thread here, I learned that:
* 2.5 and 2.7 have the exact same external dimensions.
* 2.5 ECU should be able to handle the 2.7
I'm not sure I would agree with that second bullet. There are control differences between the two V6 engines. Not saying it won't work but I don't think I'd bet the farm on it... Be careful and do more research.
Good Luck, Eric
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I understand that the rating of the 2.5 was upped from 155 to 165 in 2002 by simply employing some of the XL-7 exhaust components.
Hey, I've been wondering about that. I have a 2002 Tracker, which didn't get bumped to 165hp until 2003. Do you know what the XL-7 exhaust components were? Is it just a more free flowing tubing and muffler or something else?
Calmini has a performance exhaust for both the GV and XL-7.
[link]http://www.puresuzuki.com/exhaust_system1.htm[/link]
I haven't seen anyone that offers headers for the new engines (although I haven't looked to hard). So I can't really help you out anymore. I will be interested to see how your swap goes, I plan on keeping my Tracker around a while and if I ever feel the need to replace the engine I would definitely like to upgrade to the 2.7.
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Calmini has a performance exhaust for both the GV and XL-7. ÂÂ
[link]http://www.puresuzuki.com/exhaust_system1.htm[/link]quote]
Yeah but they don't make performance stuff for the 99+ 2dr
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Yeah but they don't make performance stuff for the 99+ 2dr
You had me puzzled there for a while, but then I realized that you are right. On the site Calmini only lists an exhaust for the GV & XL-7 V6. Does anyone know if they list more products in their catalog?
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Thanks for the link to the exhaust system Maple. Looks nice!
As to the hp ratings, I think the XL-7 must use larger pre-cats and perhaps a larger diameter y-pipe compared to the stuff on the original 2.5.
My 2.7, which shipped today, does include the pre-cats, so hopefully I'll end up w/ close to 185 hp.
So I got started tonight on extracting the old motor. Here is a shot of the patient in my garage with the hood removed:
(http://www.cstone.net/~dk/suzuki1.jpg)
At this point, the following has been done:
Air filter disconnected
strut brace removed
radiator and shroud removed
vacuum lines disconnected
heater hoses removed
fuel lines disconnected
exhaust bolts holding y-pipe to cat removed
wiring harness partially disconnected
(http://www.cstone.net/~dk/suzuki2.jpg)
This is a 4x4, so I'm wondering if it would be easier to unbolt the engine from the tranny before pulling it out? Looks to me like it will be more work to disconnect the transfer case from the tranny than to disconnect the engine from the tranny. I'm not sure how easy it will be to deal with the torque converter if I leave the tranny in the car. Any thoughts?
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Nice garage ;D.
Bigger than my house :-/
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Nice garage ;D.
Bigger than my house :-/
Cleaner than my house ... by far :)
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Guys,
He has his own lift! :o
*drool*
Cwkick
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You will need the 2.7 ECU and the pins in your dash harness connector that connects to the ECU are in different spots. You can pull them out and move them to match the 2.7 ECU. The two motors have different Maf sensors as well.
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That garage WOW! :o :o :o :o :o
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You will need the 2.7 ECU and the pins in your dash harness connector that connects to the ECU are in different spots. You can pull them out and move them to match the 2.7 ECU. The two motors have different Maf sensors as well.
Thanks man!
I got the seller to throw in the ECU for 50 bucks. The engine also includes the entire harness and he claims there isn't a single cut. I'm pretty sure the Maf sensor will still be attached the to 2.7.
Are the pin changes between 2.5 and 2.7 ECU's documented somewhere?
Thanks for the comments on the garage! I ordered a kit from Miracle Truss (4 bay 48'x30'x12'). It took a few weekends to setup (once the foundation had been poured). Hanging the insulation was the only thing that sucked. I had to rent an extend-a-fork lift to bolt the initial frame together. Them trusses are heavy! It was built in 2001.
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I hate you ;) ;D
I guess I can't complain too much.I do have a itty bitty one car garage.
Good thing the zuki is small ;D
Good luck on the repairs.
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Thanks man!
I got the seller to throw in the ECU for 50 bucks.  The engine also includes the entire harness and he claims there isn't a single cut.  I'm pretty sure the Maf sensor will still be attached the to 2.7.
Are the pin changes between 2.5 and 2.7 ECU's documented somewhere?
It isn't documented, but looking at wiring diagrams for the Grand Vitara and the XL7 you will see the different locations. It is the connector coming from your 2000 dash harness to the ECU E61 connector.
On the XL7's,the MAF and IAT sensors are part of the under hood harness,not the engine harness.
But you can run the extra 3 wires for the MAF separately. Should be a easy swap. 8)
Thanks for the comments on the garage!  I ordered a kit from Miracle Truss (4 bay 48'x30'x12').  It took a few weekends to setup (once the foundation had been poured).  Hanging the insulation was the only thing that sucked.  I had to rent an extend-a-fork lift to bolt the initial frame together.  Them trusses are heavy!  It was built in 2001.
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I see suttle changes in your engine bay as opposed to the "04s. Like my charcole (spell) canister is to the rear under side of the truck right above the gas tank. There is also a plastic splash guard over each bank of cylinders covering the coil packs. Is your MAS sensor built into the throttle body too.
The XL-7 does use high flow pre-cats and the main cat is high flow also. These were carried over to the TrackVits for "04.
Here is a shot of the "04 engine bay.
(http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/4/web/328000-328999/328312_76_full.jpg)
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Bump just got a 2001 GV today ill pick it up next sat. Im gonna do a intake and customs dwon pipes and exhaust
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'95, thanks. I'll get some wiring diagrams. Right now I have no documentation. Are the Hayes/Chilton any good for this vehicle?
'97, thanks for the '04 shot. The '02 2.7 I'm getting has the high-flow pre-cats attached. Not sure if the main cat will be included or not.
JDM, what vendors are you looking at? Those are the exact mods I'd like to do since I'll be messing with all those parts anyway.
Here is a shot from below showing the y-pipe removed. Had to unbolt the front drive shaft to allow clearance for pulling out the exhaust. The 2x4 is meant to keep the tranny balanced once I pull the engine.
(http://www.cstone.net/~dk/suzuki3.jpg)
All belt housing bolts have been removed, but my "angle" doesn't allow me to pull the engine assembly off the transmission. Perhaps I need to remove them as a pair after all? I did remove the rear brace holding the tail end of the transmission, which gainded me some relief, but I still got a ways to go in order for the oil-pan to clear the front diff.
Here's a shot showing the most angle I can achieve right now (which still isn't enough to allow the oilpan to clear the front diff.
(http://www.cstone.net/~dk/suzuki4.jpg)
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Just pull the front diff out of the way. It's only a few bolts and will make your job a lot easier.
While it's out find your self a steel housing and carrier ;D.
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Do you have a pic of the Y pipes on the motor. I got a friend that did a custom wpipe for the 2.5 and a 2.5 cat back and he said it woke that motor up big time.
More pics thanks if u want i can host them too
joshbeauchamp|removethispart|@yahoo.com
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Dropping the diff made all the difference. Here is the engine being pulled out:
(http://www.cstone.net/~dk/pulling.jpg)
And here is the empty engine bay:
(http://www.cstone.net/~dk/bay.jpg)
And finally a shot of the engine w/ the y-pipe bolted back on. The pre-cats are bolted directly to the exhaust manifolds. A set of long-tube headers along with a custom y-pipe and exhaust sure would make this engine breathe a lot better! Look at that sharp 90 on the passenger side pre-cat outlet. A nice smooth y-pipe sure would help.
(http://www.cstone.net/~dk/ypipe.jpg)
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I can not wait to get my truck saturday.
Now does the 2.7 have the same size manifolds and downpipe??
I know the cats are part of the manifolds.
Are u interested in selling the whole motor compete the blown one??
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Now does the 2.7 have the same size manifolds and downpipe?
That is a very good question and one that I should know the answer to once I sit the 2.7 next to the 2.5 and try to mount the 2.5 y-pipe too it. I'm hoping the 2.7 comes with the y-pipe, but it may not.
Are u interested in selling the whole motor complete the blown one??
Sure. It will depend on what is included with the new engine. Thinks like the starter, alternator and torque converter, etc. Once I get the 2.7 up and running, I'll be happy to part with the 2.5 along with whatever is still attached to it.
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It is the connector coming from your 2000 dash harness to the ECU E61 connector.
On the XL7's,the MAF and IAT sensors are part of the under hood harness,not the engine harness.
Are you sure about that '95?
Below is the wiring diagram for the 2000 2.5, and it shows the MAF going to C51-3 pin 23, and the IAT sensor going to C51-3 pin 8.
(http://www.cstone.net/~dk/2000%20ECM%201.jpg)
And here is the 2002 2.7 diagram showing the MAF going to C51-3 pins 5 and 10 and the IAT going to C51-3 pins 1 and 10
(http://www.cstone.net/~dk/2002%20EMC%201.jpg)
A lot of other stuff appears to have been moved around.  I'll need to study this a lot more before re-connecting the battery from the looks of things.  :-[
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::)Ok wait until you have it all together,then tell me how many wires you have to swap around in the harness.
You do see that they have different Mass air flow sensors and the wires go to different connectors.
But it's still a easy swap.
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I picked up the 2.7 this afternoon. It's the rusty looking one on the right.
(http://www.cstone.net/~dk/engine1.jpg)
It looks like it has been sitting outside for quite some time. I'm sure the internals are just fine as I can turn it over by the flywheel by hand. I'll move all the pulleys, shields and brackets over from the 2.5 since nothing has rusted on it.
Here is another shot of the 2.7. Notice the complete harness with the computer attached. It is very fortunate that the harness is complete because I think I'll be better off just replacing my GV harness with this one. The main reason being that one of the 3 ECU connectors are different. In addition, the 2.7 has different sensors in different locations, so just retaining the 2002 harness will likely make things easier.
(http://www.cstone.net/~dk/engine2.jpg)
I'll need to move the flex-plate/torque converter from the 2.5 to the 2.7. In order to do so, I need to un-sieze the 2.5 so that I can get to the 4 bolts holding the torque converter on. Looks like I'll have to drop the oil-pan, unbolt the rods, and the pull out the crank in order to accomplish this unless someone got another idea. Even my 600 lb/ft 3/4" impact wrench isn't able to turn the crank on the siezed 2.5
Btw, the 2.5 y-pipe fits the 2.7 perfectly, although I'll be looking for something that will flow better at some point.
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Are you sure about that '97?[
I think you got your user names mixed up I never said anything about MAF or IAT sensers.
I *think* it was 95XL-7 that was talking about those. ;)
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STUNT do you have MSN messanger?
So whats the differenece between the 2.5 and 2.7 outside? same size manifolds and so forth??
Also is there a secondary o2 behind the second cat?
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I think you got your user names mixed up I never said anything about MAF or IAT sensers.
I *think* it was 95XL-7 that was talking about those. ;)
Yep, you're correct, it was 95XL-7. I edited my post. I guess the 7 in XL-7 made me mix up the user names. :-[
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STUNT do you have MSN messanger?
So whats the differenece between the 2.5 and 2.7 outside? same size manifolds and so forth??
Also is there a secondary o2 behind the second cat?
JDMCRX, I don't use messenger.  Here is a quick run-down of the obvious visual differences (going from memory from last night):
* Exhaust manifolds are idential
* 2.7 intake manifold is taller near the throttle body and appears to be lacking an EGR like sensor on the left bank.  My 2.5 had California Emissions.
* The A/C compressor bracket is different, so I'll be moving over my 2.5 bracket.
* Power steering brackets are the same.
* Other pullies and the belt tensioner are identical.
* There are O2 sensors before and after each pre-cat, I don't believe there is a 5th O2 behind the main cat.
* Fuel line paths are identical.
* Misc sensors are different and in different locations.
* Oil pans are identical, so I suspect the 2.7 came out of a 4x4.
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Yeah u will probly need to switch the intakes maybe.
I may be interested in the down pipes and exhaust manifolds if u willing to sell. also the fuel pressure reg cause my truck needs one .
JOSH
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Another question do you have email STUNT?
How big are the downpipes on the 2.5 inch wise?
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I made my email visible in my profile.  The downpipes look to be maybe 2" or so.  I'll meassure them.  There isn't much there other than the pre-cats and the pre-cats look identical to the ones on the 2.7.
I think it makes more sense to leave the 2.7 intake on the 2.7 bottom end. If I was going to use the 2.5 ECU and harness on the 2.7, I would agree that swapping out the intake would make sense.
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Yeah sorry about the intakes i just read i forgot u were using the 2.7 wiring harnes.
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Is it possible to post more pics also
can u take a pic of the exhaust manifolds thanks STUNT like the welds on the cats and ports.
The truck i got has a cracked manifold
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I tore into the bottom end of the 2.5 to get it unsiezed so that I could turn the crank to get at the converter bolts since I need it for the 2.7.
Here is what I found on rod journal #3:
(http://www.cstone.net/~dk/engine3.jpg)
A close up of the cap and upper bearing:
(http://www.cstone.net/~dk/engine4.jpg)
The oil pump was fine, but the pickup tube screen certainly appears to be a little on the clogged side...
(http://www.cstone.net/~dk/engine5.jpg)
There doesn't appear to be any other damage that I can tell, so a new rod and a polish of the crank journal just might get the engine back on its feet although a complete teardown would probably be a better bet.
The cranks turns by hand now, so I was able to unbolt the converter and flywheel, so I'm now ready to prep the 2.7 for installation.
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Is it possible to post more pics also
can u take a pic of the exhaust manifolds thanks STUNT like the welds on the cats and ports.
The truck i got has a cracked manifold
Here you go JDMCRX. The other side is very similar.
(http://www.cstone.net/~dk/manifold.jpg)
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Hey stunt i sent u a email from joshbeauchamp|removethispart|@yahoo.com
I need to purchase some stuff off u im sort of in a bind lol
thanks for the pics please email me back
josh
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Thanks STNUT for the pics do u have any pics of the cyl head as in cams also the pistons and cyl comp chamber.
More pics the marryier. Just would like to know what this motor looks like inside if u can email them to me i can host them if you can not.
Also does a 2001 have a MASS AIR or is MAP sensor?
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I just wanted to say,
I LOVE the pictures in this topic, and I love reading this.
THANKS!
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Thanks Heather!  I'm also very appreciative of the feedback I'm getting.  A week ago, I had never not so much as turned a bolt on a Suzuki.  I 4x4 with the best of them, but my choice of iron comes from within the US borders (current rig is a '02 Silverado 3500 duramax crew cab long bed w/ a 15000 Warn winch out front running BFG 235/85/16s ATs).
So you guys want pictures?  Well, here you go!
WARNING!  If you click on the "Full Rez" link below each pic, you'll get a 6.3 Mega Pixel version of the image (I'm using a Canon Digital Rebel).
Me and Rufus looking at the mess I've made (okay, Rufus is looking at the camera ;))
(http://www.cstone.net/~dk/whatamess.jpg)
Full Rez (http://www.cstone.net/~dk/IMG_2872.jpg)
And here are several shots of the 2.5 from various anlges:
(http://www.cstone.net/~dk/front.jpg)
Full Rez (http://www.cstone.net/~dk/IMG_2879.jpg)
(http://www.cstone.net/~dk/manifoldtop.jpg)
Full Rez (http://www.cstone.net/~dk/IMG_2877.jpg)
(http://www.cstone.net/~dk/manifoldrear.jpg)
Full Rez (http://www.cstone.net/~dk/IMG_2878.jpg)
(http://www.cstone.net/~dk/manifoldfront.jpg)
Full Rez (http://www.cstone.net/~dk/IMG_2885.jpg)
(http://www.cstone.net/~dk/passside.jpg)
Full Rez (http://www.cstone.net/~dk/IMG_2884.jpg)
(http://www.cstone.net/~dk/driverside.jpg)
Full Rez (http://www.cstone.net/~dk/IMG_2881.jpg)
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Yea awesome thread. I have absolutely no use for this knowledge but keep coming back ;D Keep it coming 8)
Zig
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How often did you change your oil? Were you using synthetic? The motor sure looks sludged up.
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How often did you change your oil? Were you using synthetic? The motor sure looks sludged up.
It's VERY sludged up. I just got married a couple of months ago, but the wife states that she had the oil changed at Jiffy Lube every 3000 miles. Ironically, I did change the oil once, 1 month ago, and the old oil was blacker than the oil in my diesel truck! No, I didn't use synthetic and I'm sure Jiffy Lube didn't either.
I do run synthetic in my other rides, so would you recommend that I switch to say, Mobil 1 synthetic 5w-30 in the 2.7?
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Often time Jiffy Lube uses Penzoil.
Penzoil used to be the best oil you could get. Once they lost the rights to the Pennsylvania crude oil reserves they started use a lot of paraffin (wax) in their oil.
Now it sucks.
Cwkick
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I used penzoil once in my 2.0 Tracker and the inside went from looking shinny and new, to dull and brown. Also some shops won't change your filter if it's in a hard to reach/remove area but they will tell you they did >:(, did my own little experiment once and found that out. The only reason I take my vehicle to a shop is for state inspections and I watch them like a hawk.
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It's VERY sludged up.  I just got married a couple of months ago, but the wife states that she had the oil changed at Jiffy Lube every 3000 miles.  Ironically, I did change the oil once, 1 month ago, and the old oil was blacker than the oil in my diesel truck!  No, I didn't use synthetic and I'm sure Jiffy Lube didn't either.
I do run synthetic in my other rides, so would you recommend that I switch to say, Mobil 1 synthetic 5w-30 in the 2.7?
Use synthetic even if it's a cheaper brand 5w30
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Well, this 2.5 sure seemed to have suffered from the curse of Jiffy Lube. I have never, nor do I plan to, take any vehicle to any of those "shops".
The only work I don't do myself is if the vehicle is still under warranty and something expensive needs fixing.
I'll be running synthetic in the 2.7 for sure, thanks.
I must say that I was suprised how much room there is around the v6 in the GV engine bay.
If all goes according to plan, the 2.7 will be up and running this weekend.
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The 2.7 is in and mechanically everything is 100% done.
(http://www.cstone.net/~dk/2.7incar.jpg)
Hirez Version (http://www.cstone.net/~dk/IMG_2890.jpg)
Notice that the engine harness is laying on the windshield.  Eletrically, a lot of work has been completed, but there is still plenty left to do.  The 2002 harness was for a 2x4, so a couple of 4x4 related connectors were missing.  The 4WD switch (C18 ) was added and wired to ECM connector C-51-3-7 and 4WD low switch (C19) wired to ECM connector C51-1-26.  Both connectors share a common ground with several other connectors, so I was able to splice those into the noise supressor in the harness prior to leaving the engine bay onto a wire that eventually makes it way to chassis connector C52-10. ÂÂ
Additionally, the vehicle speed sensor (C20) had to be extended due to the lenght added by the transfer case.  Also, the post cat O2 sensors were different, so all those connectors were moved over from my 2000 harness.
The 2000 chassis has a 6 pin connector (C59) behind the glovebox that is not present on the 2002.  So I had to cut this connector from the 2000 harness and splice it into the 2002 one.
The biggest challenge will be moving all the pins around on E61 to match the new ECM.  A total of 22 pins will need to be moved.
Here is a shot of the wiring diagrams that I was using to note all the changes between the 2000 and 2002 wiring:
(http://www.cstone.net/~dk/schematics.jpg)
Hirez Version (http://www.cstone.net/~dk/IMG_2895.jpg)
And here are spreadsheets noting the changes on connectors C52, C59 and E61:
(http://www.cstone.net/~dk/C52.jpg)
(http://www.cstone.net/~dk/C59.jpg)
(http://www.cstone.net/~dk/E61.jpg)
The 2000 uses an A/C amplifier, where the 2002 apparently have those functions built into the PCM.  So I still need to figure out what to do with those wires.  And the 4WD light, although that is minor.
I also need to get the MAF for the 2.7 as it is apparently located in the tube immediately following the air filter housing unlike my 2.5 which had it on the engine just ahead of the throttle body.
Other changes include the tank pressure control valve being moved from the inside fender to within the intake manifold from what I can tell, so I need to bypass the one on the fender and run the vacumm line directly to the manifold.  I'll need to reduce the fitting on the manifold since it is much larger than the one on my 2.5.
The evap canister air valve wires were moved to the 2.7 harness compared to my 2.5 and must be located next to the transmission since the 2002 harness had a plug for it.  So this will need to be rewired as well.
Mechanically this was an easy swap since the engines are physically the same, but getting the 2002 PCM to properly operate all the other stuff on a 2000 is proving to be quite challenging to say the least!
I'm off chasing down to the guy that sold me the 2.7 to see if he has the MAF, its connector and the air-tube...
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Hey man looking great can not wait to see that thing rip.
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Thanks JDM.  Believe me when I say I too look forward to going for a spin.  20% extra power should be quite noticable!
Bummer is that the guy I got the engine from is out of town until the end of the week.  Just for grins, I priced the missing parts from suzukicarparts.com, and came up w/ the following:
Air flow sensor (13800-52D00) $718.73
Outlet hose (13881-52D00) $43.58
Resonater #2 (13761-52D10) $18.54
Those are just crazy prices!  I also need the connector that plugs into the MAF since the 2.5 is a 4 pin (only using 3 of them) and the 2.7 is a 3 pin.  I sure hope the guy is going to come through with those pieces, otherwise I'm pretty screwed as I'm not going to pay anywhere near $700 for a freaking MAF!
But I take the prices on that web site with a grain of salt, I mean, they want $560 for the alternator!
Edit:
I spoke to the local salvage yard, and they will sell me the 3 pieces I'm missing for $200 in case the 2.7 seller doesn't have them anymore. Still more than I'd like, but probably worth it if I can't get them cheaper elsewhere.
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Gee Stunt, I just hope I’m allowed to RIDE in this car (let alone DRIVE it) after this incredible engine resurrection/reconstruction! Thanks for all your hard work on my car! You are a star! We’ll sort out the missing air flow sensor. Meanwhile, after watching “Pimp my Ride� on MTV the other day, I was wondering if you could install:
-A new gold grill
-24 karat gold rims (spinners)
-Curb feelers
-Big truck air horn
-Pink Alligator skin seats with initials T.L.C stitched into the upholstery (and steering wheel).
-Boomerang antenna to watch TV
-3 Xbox game consoles hooked up together with wireless adapters and wireless controllers, able to have up to 12 players
-Smoothie machine
-Clothes dryer
-School bus sign on the side that pops out that says "CHILL"
-Hardwood floors
-Make up kit in center console
-Surveillance camera in the head liner wired to a 15" flip down monitor
-Additional 15" flip down monitor (next to the other one)
-ATM Machine
-Electric Fireplace in the back
-Green neon lights on the inside
-Orange neon lights on the bottom
-12" Fusion woofers with neon rings in the trunk
-4 Fusion amps in the trunk
-A side panel that reads: "Caught Cha looking"
Just kidding, of course! :)
However, I would like to ‘publicly’ proclaim how wonderful I think you are! After nearly two weeks of tireless (no pun intended) devotion to this monumental task, your unwavering tenacity and cyborg-like technical skills are the envy of NASA! You’re simply amazing and I love you for it!
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stuntwife,
Please take care of your man, because he sure seems to be taking care of you! ;)
Happy V-Day!
Cwkick
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No worries Cwkick,
If I had a mountaintop upon which to shout my undying love and devotion for my husband I would shout it, but since I don’t really have access to a proper mountaintop (per se) this Suzuki forum will do nicely. Please pardon my slightly off topic post, but it is as you point out, Valentine’s Day.
To my Husband: My Proclamation of love
If another word was never written
If another sound was never spoken
If another daybreak should never arrive
On the heels of a moonlit night
If another breath should never pass
If another moment should never be
If another space and world beyond
Should claim my soul while I slumber
Then let these final words I write
And this final sound I whisper
Be the greatest proclamation
The world has ever known
Of a love so strong and true
And sweet with graceful, timeless wonder
A love that burns to this day
Like the fire of a billion suns
Let this final proclamation ring
For now and all posterity:
You are my love, my life,
My hopes, my dreams,
My all...my love,
As true today as ever...
Happy Valentines Day! ;)
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So sweet! :P
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Careful newlyweds: You should be spending more time in the bedroom than in the garage or writing a bunch of shit on bulletin boards. And there can be no more little white lies now that you're married. :-/
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The 2.7 is in and mechanically everything is 100% done.
([url]http://www.cstone.net/~dk/2.7incar.jpg[/url])
Hirez Version ([url]http://www.cstone.net/~dk/IMG_2890.jpg[/url])
Notice that the engine harness is laying on the windshield.  Eletrically, a lot of work has been completed, but there is still plenty left to do.  The 2002 harness was for a 2x4, so a couple of 4x4 related connectors were missing.  The 4WD switch (C18 ) was added and wired to ECM connector C-51-3-7 and 4WD low switch (C19) wired to ECM connector C51-1-26.  Both connectors share a common ground with several other connectors, so I was able to splice those into the noise supressor in the harness prior to leaving the engine bay onto a wire that eventually makes it way to chassis connector C52-10. ÂÂ
Additionally, the vehicle speed sensor (C20) had to be extended due to the lenght added by the transfer case.  Also, the post cat O2 sensors were different, so all those connectors were moved over from my 2000 harness.
The 2000 chassis has a 6 pin connector (C59) behind the glovebox that is not present on the 2002.  So I had to cut this connector from the 2000 harness and splice it into the 2002 one.
The biggest challenge will be moving all the pins around on E61 to match the new ECM.  A total of 22 pins will need to be moved.
Here is a shot of the wiring diagrams that I was using to note all the changes between the 2000 and 2002 wiring:
([url]http://www.cstone.net/~dk/schematics.jpg[/url])
Hirez Version ([url]http://www.cstone.net/~dk/IMG_2895.jpg[/url])
And here are spreadsheets noting the changes on connectors C52, C59 and E61:
([url]http://www.cstone.net/~dk/C52.jpg[/url])
([url]http://www.cstone.net/~dk/C59.jpg[/url])
([url]http://www.cstone.net/~dk/E61.jpg[/url])
The 2000 uses an A/C amplifier, where the 2002 apparently have those functions built into the PCM.  So I still need to figure out what to do with those wires.  And the 4WD light, although that is minor.
I also need to get the MAF for the 2.7 as it is apparently located in the tube immediately following the air filter housing unlike my 2.5 which had it on the engine just ahead of the throttle body.
Other changes include the tank pressure control valve being moved from the inside fender to within the intake manifold from what I can tell, so I need to bypass the one on the fender and run the vacumm line directly to the manifold.  I'll need to reduce the fitting on the manifold since it is much larger than the one on my 2.5.
The evap canister air valve wires were moved to the 2.7 harness compared to my 2.5 and must be located next to the transmission since the 2002 harness had a plug for it.  So this will need to be rewired as well.
Mechanically this was an easy swap since the engines are physically the same, but getting the 2002 PCM to properly operate all the other stuff on a 2000 is proving to be quite challenging to say the least!
I'm off chasing down to the guy that sold me the 2.7 to see if he has the MAF, its connector and the air-tube...
Now you understand what i was telling you about the wiring being different?? ::) The swap is easy,but the wiring can be a challenge if your doing it for the first time.
Can wait to here how you like it !!!
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Careful newlyweds: You should be spending more time in the bedroom than in the garage or writing a bunch of shit on bulletin boards. And there can be no more little white lies now that you're married. :-/
Who says? What if they like being in the garage? What if they like.. um hanky panky in the garage? ;D
[austin powers voice]And who names themselves moderator? Seriously?[/austin powers voice]
;)
Thanks stunt and stunt's wife.. this has been a great thread! Keep us all updated on your progress!
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Awesome stuff 8) Even the :-* :-*. You'll got it good 8) Keep it up ;)
Zig
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Bump
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Well did you getter done????
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Yeah bump wondering too
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Another question
Id the vavle adjustments on the 2.5 mechanical or hydrlic lifters??
any pics of the vavle train and pistons.
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Sorry guys. Been playing phone tag with the seller of the 2.7 to see if he has the MAF that I need to complete the project. He thinks that its still attached to the wrecked XL-7, but that was two days ago and I haven't been able to catch him since.
I'm trying to avoid paying $200 for one from the junk yard which is the best alternative I have right now. Free is better!
JDM, I didn't pull the valve covers off the 2.5 as it looks like the whole intake has to come off first.
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Just spoke to the seller and he does indeed have the MAF and connecting pipe. He's sending it to me today or tomorrow, so I should be up and running early next week. Ended up paying $60 w/ shipping, but I don't think I could have done better elsewhere, plus this way I know I got the correct part.
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Is the vavle adjustments on the 2.5 mechanical or hydrlic lifters??
The 1.8 and up are hydrolic. ;)
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Thanks
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I'm still waiting for the MAF to show up. In the meantime, I went ahead and re-installed the harness, including running 3 wires for the MAF. You can see the 2.5 connector within the yellow rectangle. I'll have to replace it with the 2.7 since they are different, but this way I'm preserving the proper colors on the wires. Battery and strut tower brace has also been reinstalled. All fluids have been added as well.
(http://www.cstone.net/~dk/bay2.jpg)
Hirez (http://www.cstone.net/~dk/IMG_2899.jpg)
And here is an inside shot showing the various connectors that will connect to the ECM. The 3 loose wires are for the MAF sensor.
(http://www.cstone.net/~dk/wires1.jpg)
Hirez (http://www.cstone.net/~dk/IMG_2901.jpg)
And finally a shot of the 2.5 and 2.7 computers. The nice one in the metal case is the 2.5. They went all plastic by 2002 it seems.
(http://www.cstone.net/~dk/ecm1.jpg)
Hirez (http://www.cstone.net/~dk/IMG_2904.jpg)
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So close,
Yet,
so far ;)
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You got that right hotrod!
Turns out the seller only has the MAF itself and not the pipe/resonator that goes with it. Furthermore, his filter housing was busted from the accident, so that's not available either.
Here is a shot of the 2000 2.5 intake pieces:
(http://www.cstone.net/~dk/2000intake.jpg)
And a shot of the 2002 2.7 intake pieces:
(http://www.cstone.net/~dk/2002intake.jpg)
Notice how the 2.7 housing is designed to accept the MAF? In other words, my 2.5 housing isn't going to work, even if I drop the $60 for the 2.7 pipe and resonator. And I definately don't want to spend $240 for a new 2.7 filter housing.
Having just the 2.7 MAF, is there a K&N kit (or equivalent) available that will take care of the rest for less than the $300 bucks the 2.7 OEM parts will cost? I don't see anything according to the K&N application guide other than an OEM filter replacement.
I see some of you guys are running conical filters in place of the OEM stuff, but I don't think I've seen pics of a 2.7 setup incorporating the MAF and intake air temp sensor.
I see plenty of cold-air intake systems for the 2.0 and below engines, but nothing for the 2.5 or 2.7. Does nobody make such a kit? It seems like a real bummer to have to spend $300 for the OEM pieces when I'm sure an aftermarket kit would come in at less than that...
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I stand corrected, I just found a pic of 95XL7's setup:
(http://www.cstone.net/~dk/xl7coldair.jpg)
So '95, what filter is that (part #) and are you using the 2.5 or 2.7 tube pieces with that?
Maybe I can make things work with the 2.5 pieces I have on hand... Also, did you insert the air temp probe in there somewhere?
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I have a XL7 airbox that came with my motor,do you want it?
You pay the shipping and it's yours.
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Sounds great '95! I just sent you a note.
I think the wife would prefer a little less noise that what an open intake will sound like. ;D
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The MAF showed up today, so I went ahead and made a *very* temporary connection to the engine intake as follows:
(http://www.cstone.net/~dk/maf.jpg)
Next I connected the ECU, also in a *very* temporary fashion. I got a couple of wires left over that come from the "A/C amplifier" on the 2000 which apparenly isn't used on 2002 models, so I'll have to do some more reseach on that.
(http://www.cstone.net/~dk/pcmwired.jpg)
And the moment of truth:
Cranking the engine! (http://www.cstone.net/~dk/suzuki.wmv)
As you can see, the engine fired right up. ;D
The SES light came on, but that doesn't really suprise me. Perhaps once I get the airbox from 95XL7 and mount the MAF and IAT sensor properly it will clear. If not, I'll need to hook up my Autotap to see what code is being set and go from there. At least the oil pressure light isn't comming on! ;)
The tach isn't working yet either, which surprises me, but I'll double check my work to see what's up with that.
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Purrrrrrrrrrs like a kitten ;D
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First GEN-2.5L 155hp 160lb.-ft. torque.
2.7L 183hp 180lb.-ft. torque.
-----------------------------------------------------
The difference 28hp 20lb.-ft. torque.
Wow, I think you just MIGHT feel the upgrade ;).
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The 2.7 definately feels a lot stronger than the 2.5. I went ahead and picked up some flexible 3" hose and connected the MAF to the air filter. Put about 100 miles on the "new" engine so far. There was a lot of valve train noise for the first several miles, but I think that was caused by the hydraulic lifters due to the engine sitting for 2 years. Now it runs smooth as butter.
Hills that would cause a downshift into 3rd with the 2.5 are overtaken effortlessly in 4th now.
I got the tach working (just had it going to the wrong pin on the PCM). Getting the 4x4 working was the biggest challenge. I had to locate this circuit board under the dash and re-route all the wires to the PCM as it controls the air pump on 2002 models. I went ahead and unsoldered the connector from the circuit board and use that as a plug into the harness. I did this because it was very tight up under the dash, and it would have sucked to have to do my soldering there.
(http://www.cstone.net/~dk/4x4circuit.jpg)
Now I'm just waiting on the proper airbox from 95XL7 and the 2.7 outlet pipe, and I'll be all done. Heater and A/C controls all function 100% despite 2 wires from the 2000 PCM not being used on the 2002. Cruise is also working 100%.
The only thing that is a bit funky is the O/D switch on the shift lever. On 2000 models, the button is either in or out. I suspect the 2002 is a momentary switch. I have to press it twice to toggle in and out of O/D, but if that's the only compromise, I can certainly live with it.
Despite all the re-wiring, the swap was well worth it and the wife feels like she has a brand new ride now, so its a win-win.
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On 2000 models, the button is either in or out.  I suspect the 2002 is a momentary switch.
You're correct it is not like the older in/out switch it is a momentary switch.
If you turn the overdrive off in the newer trucks, when you turn off the ingnition and turn it back on again the overdrive is back on. It does'nt stay off when you restart, you have to turn it off again.
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You're correct it is not like the older in/out switch it is a momentary switch.
If you turn the overdrive off in the newer trucks, when you turn off the ingnition and turn it back on again the overdrive is back on. It does'nt stay off when you restart, you have to turn it off again.
That's what I thought. Thanks. I wonder if a 2000 shifter can be retrofitted with the momentary switch?
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Great job!
I loved the pics.
We've thought about upgrading the motor in our 95, but have often wondered exactly what type of stuff is involved. This helps a lot!
~Nate
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Great job!
I loved the pics.
We've thought about upgrading the motor in our 95, but have often wondered exactly what type of stuff is involved.  This helps a lot!
~Nate
Yea, it let's you know that you have to be one hell of a Mechanic and an Electrical Engineer to do a job like this.
Great Job,
Zig
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Thanks guys. This sure was a lot more complicated than swapping the 300 straight 6 (threw a rod |removethispart|@ 100k) on my 4-speed equipped '81 Ford F150 4x4 with a 351W. That just took a couple of new mounts and a starter!
If you are thinking of doing a swap like this, definately take your time with the electrical. I also strongly recommend getting a connector pin removal tool for the ECM pins. I did the first 10 or so with a paper clip, but some of the pins can be a real bitch. Once I got the proper tool, it was soo much easier to do the remaining 25 or so pins.
With one exception (rear window defrost) I found that even though the various connections were in different locations on the various connectors, the color coding of the wires remained the same.
I'm still waiting on my scanner upgrade (for imports) so that I can see why the SES light is on. I'm hoping its an old code that I just need to clear. Engine runs great and my guess is that the milage will be around 20-21 mpg which I understand is about right for an XL-7 in winter months.
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 There was a lot of valve train noise for the first several miles, but I think that was caused by the hydraulic lifters due to the engine sitting for 2 years.  Now it runs smooth as butter.
My 2.7 sounded like yours did as well. It clattered for several minutes maybe even up to a half hour or so. But then it quited down and has been smoooooth ever since...
-Eric
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If it were me doing this swap Suzuki would have already built a V8 by the time I got the wiring figured out.
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I got the airbox from 95XL7 and the connecting pipe and resonator from the dealer. Looks very factory now:
(http://www.cstone.net/~dk/enginefinal.jpg)
I also got my scantool upgrade so I was finally able to scan the PCM to see why the service engine light was on. Well, the scanner didn't pick up any DTCs, which was weird. But I was able to clear it, but it came back on again within 10 seconds. So I scanned the various parameters that it was monitoring, and the MAF was returning a constant value of a wopping 281.35 grams/second (g/s) at idle and the value remained constant when I reved the engine.
It should be around 2.6 - 4.5 g/s at idle, and something like 10.0 - 16.0 g/s at 2500 RPM. So I got out the voltmeter and sure enough, the MAF was sending a constant voltage of around 9V as opposed to a value between 1V and 4V depending on engine speed.
Luckly I located another MAF off a '02 XL-2, so I'm off the the junkyard on Monday to pick it up. Hopefully that will be the final chapter of this engine swap.
I'm surprised how well the engine runs despite a malfunctioning MAF, and I also don't quite understand why my scantool didn't pick up any DTCs, yet allowed me to clear them.
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I'm surprised how well the engine runs despite a malfunctioning MAF,
I was shocked to find out that they will run well even with the MAF unplugged, the 1.6 anyway. Have'nt tried it with my V6 yet.
My wifes nissan sputters and stalls if you do that.
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Glad to see the airbox was put to good use! 8)
I had my MAF go bad too, and had to get a used one from the bone yard. I think i might have shorted it out when trying to figure out the wiring. :-[
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Well, I got another MAF from the bone yard, but it behaves exactly like the one that came with the engine in that my scan tools shows 281.35 g/s no matter what the engine rpm. :(
12V and ground checks out fine at the MAF connector. This is also where I measure the 9V signal coming from the sensor.
I suppose I can try disconnecting the signal at the MAF end to see if it remains |removethispart|@ 9V to rule out the PCM being messed up as that is really the only other possible cause of this issue according to the service manual.
I suppose I can try to sweet talk the dealership into letting me try a known good MAF and PCM (or have them try it and me pay them the labor $$$), but I have a feeling they aren't going to be very accommodating.
Since the car runs great and the mileage as about the same as before, I wonder what the long term effects would be to just leave things the way they are?
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did you try swapping the wires around on the MAF? Like swapping the two end wires, the center can only be the center,but switch the #1 and#3 wires around and retry it.
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I haven't tried that, but since I now have 2 MAFs I might as well give it a shot with one of them. That will basically flip 12V and ground to the unit, but maybe that is the problem. I did meassure battery voltage with the ignition on at the pin they show in this picture. But who knows...
(http://www.cstone.net/~dk/2002mafcon.jpg)
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Turns out my ground wire going to the ECM was faulty. I wired the MAF directly to the battery and measured the output voltage. It was around 2.2V at idle as it should be and increased with RPMs.
So I replaced the ground wire and all is well. Cleared the check engine light and it didn't come back on. There is no longer a slight hesitation when taking off from a stop. So this finally wraps up the swap!
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Congrats, and thanks for all the great info. Glad to hear you got it all worked out. So was the power increase worth all the work, or would you just replace the 2.5 next time?
L8r,
Zig
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Zig, if I had known all the wiring changes that had to be made, I would have had to think twice about going to the 2.7 engine.
There is noticably more power, and given that the 2.7 only had 10k on it, I'd say it was all worth it in the end.
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One of the best and most descriptive how to's I've seen. Many thanks for this thread as this will save me a ton of time when I want to swap my 2.5. BTW was it hard to find that 2.7. Sounds like you got and excellent deal??? ;)
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You're welcome jtz.
Car has been running great since the swap and mileage has been averaging 21.7 mpg. I'm not sure what the 2.5 mileage was, but I don't think it was much better, if at all, than the 2.7.
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Firstly I would like to thanks Stunt for sharing his advanture! I have been thinking about this mod for a couple of years just for the fun of it and plus 20% extra power/torque.
I am just waiting for a donor vehicle (front cut really) and let the fun begin!
Regarding the exhaust, I had a look through the Suzuki parts manual once and the pre 2001 2.5L V6 extractor and y-pipe has the same part number as the pre 1998 2L V6 and I believe the pre 2001 2.5 V6 shares the same cat/muffler and tail pipe with the 2L 4cyl so I can only guess that the 2001 V6 exhaust is quite small for a 2.5L.
Also wondering if the ECU is different between an auto and manual. I changed the gear swapped box in a Nissan once (SR20DT from AUTO to Manual) and the ECU was different between the auto and manual.
Anyhow thanks again for taking the time and effort for sharing the experience!
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Woy, yes, the ECU is different for the auto vs. manual. Different part numbers. Also the auto wiring harness has several additional connectors that hook up to the tranny that are missing from the manual harness.
Yes, the exhaust on the 2000 2.5L is a bit undersized for the 2.7L. There is also quite a restriction on one side. The engine would breathe a lot better if fitted w/ a late model exhaust. It would be nice if the aftermarket would come out w/ a performance exhaust system that included the downpipes, and perhaps even a set of headers.