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ZUKIWORLD Model Specific Suzuki Forum => Suzuki Grand Vitara, Vitara, Chevy Tracker (Gen. 2 Platform) 1999-2005 => Topic started by: Rally_T-115 on December 23, 2009, 04:54:58 PM
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Well It sounds like I may have broke something or grinded teeth off in the front differential...
As you may recall I'm the guy that zip-tied the actuator so that it's permanently engaged. I have manual hubs and in the winter I leave them locked all the time so that I can pop the truck into and out of 4WD at any time.
This evening after screwing around with the rear brakes, I wanted to show off and I foolishly tried to do a WRC style "launch" on slushy snow without ensuring that the t-case was fully engaged and everything was still cold. Dumped the clutch and it made a big scary BANGGrinnd!.
I popped it back into 2WD mode, remember I have my front hubs locked so my front driveline still spins when I drive. On the way home (in 2WD) it was clunking nearly all the way - at first I thought it was just the frost cracks in the pavement. I knew something was really wrong when I got to the brand-new smooth section of pavement and it was still clunking. Then when I slowed to a stop I heard a rumbling noise like a shot wheel bearing. Aw crap.
I pulled over and disengaged the locking hubs so that the front driveline was now free-wheeling, and the clunking/rumbling sound went away.
Since it went away, I think I can rule out the transfer case, I think it'll be OK.
Maybe I broke something in the Warn hubs, and one side is freewheeling.
Probably I broke something inside the front diff. I wonder if I finally crushed the plastic zip-ties under that huge torque load? If so hopefully I can just put in a couple new zip-ties which would re-engage it and it'll be fine. That nasty wheel-bearing rumble has me very worried though, I really hope I didn't grind metal in there!!!
Unfortunately I won't be able to check any of this out until Monday at the earliest after work! So I'm stuck in RWD mode until then.
I really hope I don't have to replace the whole thing!
This is quite inconvenient, winter road-rally season is starting up in only 1/2 a month!
James
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crawl under your truck, (or if you have a hoist, you said so in your other thread) anyway, with your t-case in 2wd and your hubs unlocked, turn your front driveshaft by hand and see what you hear, and WHERE you hear it, you may have blown your front t-case output, OR your rp in your diff or whatever. if you don't hear anything, en-gauge your hubs and see what happens, then put in 4wd exc exc....
good luck
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Two things you can learn from this: 1) breakdowns rarely occur at a convenient time, and 2) misery loves company! Merry Christmas from your fellow broke down zuker
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Thinking your tracker is WRC (dont you mean WRX???) car was probably your biggest mistake...sound like fron t case to me
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If your running stock tires I HIGHLY doubt you did an significat damage unless A) You had a weak link in your driveline and B) You found out that there is excessive wear in the front diff, or the front T-case..
If you had 31's, then you probably would of blown a diff/ R&P.
Once you crawl under and poke around it should be easy time find.
Bryce
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Ya I run stock tires.
Quick update, I'm in the shop now, no external damage visible, TC feels fine, something's slipping in the front diff. Will have to see later.
JAmes
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Maybe an incompressible spacer would be better than the zip-ties?
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zip-ties OWN all....just like duct tape
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^^^^^ i disagree, hose clamps have a higher tensile strength HAHAHAH
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Hi Guys, quick note.
Good News! Pulled it down and it was a broken zip tie. Everything else was fine. No metallic fuzz on the drainplug magnet. No pieces floating around. Replaced both zip ties and added two more short ones so I had four heads around the actuator now. Actuator still moves over fine by hand, but the rubber diaphragm is torn up now so air pressure is useless.
Took lots of pictures this time.
Currently still in RWD only mode, diff is still on the workbench. Will likely have it back in the car tuesday night I'm guessing.
Should've done it today though. We're getting over 10cm of snow over the weekend total.
It's strange having to be so light on the gas pedal in the bad weather...
James
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So... what do you think caused the zip tie to break, ralley_T-115? Do you think the gear oil eventually softened up the plastic to where it let go (after a year)? Zip ties are pretty tough. Large ones hold about #45-50 pounds of force, smaller ones about #25-35 and tiny ones should be good for #5-8 of force.
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I have 4WD back!
I really think it was excessive force that broke it.
Broken zip-tie:
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x203/dpkeys/GV/frontdiff/IMG_0063a.jpg)
Tried to take a couple more pictures, but the camera doesn't focus well close up.
May have cracked in the cold and sudden force. I really think that if I had warmed it up it wouldn't have broken.
Except for that break, the zip-ties seemed fine, not affected by the gear oil.
So like I said, I replaced both ties like last time but added two more short ones so that the actuator is held out more evenly all the way around.
Two new LONG zip-ties (just like before):
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x203/dpkeys/GV/frontdiff/IMG_0082a.jpg)
I looped one around and zipped it up, and positioned it so the head of the ziptie was down at the bottom. Then I zipped the other one over the first one, and zipped it so the head was towards the top. I made sure the second tie didn't rub against any moving parts, where the first head is.
I then added two more shorter, regular-length zip-ties, and positioned the heads more-or-less 90deg away from the 1st two.
The ties in place:
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x203/dpkeys/GV/frontdiff/IMG_0083a.jpg)
And underneath:
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x203/dpkeys/GV/frontdiff/IMG_0084a.jpg)
TWO ties overlapped the head here so I used a 5th white baby zip-tie to keep them together.
Filling the differential: ;)
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x203/dpkeys/GV/frontdiff/IMG_0111a.jpg)
So that's basically it. Had it back into the car last night, drove it home with the hubs locked but in 2WD. Finally tried it out tonight. Working good!
James
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Great news and good info and pics. Thanks Ralley_t115.
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Hello, new at this forum and have a question qbout the zip-ties in de front-diff.
I'm dutch so the english you are all using is a bit hard for me.
I have a 2003 Grand Vitara, now my 4wd don't work. I called my garage but thay don't know how the 4wd works because the dutch grand vitara works in a different way(he told me he didn't know anything about an airpump to activate the front-diff)
I tested my air pump outside the car and it worked but not when it's connected at the car. I only got 12v on the pink and the black is ground.
So i think it's a electric thing but in this topic you say you can lock the front-diff with zip-ties( what the airpump normely does?) and than the transfer case will engange the front wheels when it's in 4wd? But I need manual hubs but I don't know what that is.
Hope someone can help/explain me so I now what to do to get my 4wd back.
Thanks,
Erik
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Find a new mechanic. ALL Grand Vitarass built between 98 & 2005 have the same air actuated free wheel differential assembly, regardless of where they were sold.
I posted instructions that might help you locate the problem in your other thread.
With regard the manual hubs.
Part time 4WD vehicles - your 2003 GV is a part time 4WD - can have either lock outs, manual free wheeling hubs or automatic free wheeling hubs. All three of these devices connect the front axle shaft to the front wheel hub, so that when the axle rotates, it rotates the wheel with it (and vice versa). The free-wheel hubs (manual or automatic) allow you to operate the vehicle in 2WD without the wheel rotating the axle, this is done to reduce wear and fuel consumption.
Because your GV was fitted at the factory with a free wheeling differential assembly, the axle connects to the hub with a lock out - remove a wheel and look at the center of the hub - you'll see six small bolts holding a metal cap into place - that is the lock out. When the wheel rotates, the axle rotates but because there is a free wheeling differential assembly, the differential does not rotate.
On a vehicle without a free wheeling differential assembly (most part time 4WDs don't have this), you may find a lockout - in which case the front differential rotates any time the vehicle is moving. Freewheeling hubs are an option to allow the vehicle to be used in 2WD without the front differential rotating. Manual free-wheeling hubs require that you get out and turn a knob to lock them when you wish to use 4WD, auto freewheeling hubs don't have any knobs and depend on the movement of the vehicle to lock them.
Here's a link to a manual free wheel hubhttp://www.puresuzuki.com/hubs.htm (http://www.puresuzuki.com/hubs.htm)
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Did this repair to mine more than a year ago, but did not use zip ties.
I Gently pushed the actuator over with a couple screw drivers to engage the axle lock, then ran a bead of weld in the 4 recessed parts of the gear. The axle lock has alot of material to weld to so you can get good heat penetration.
I have pounded the crap out of mine in mud and snow and has performed flawless.
Don't know why one would use zipties, other than the fact that welding it is a permanent fix, but that's a good thing to me.
A good weld is not gonna break like a ziptie ;)
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Some of us don't have the facilities to weld, and zipties are quick & easy - if/when mine fails - depending on where I am when it fails, I know I will have zip-ties handy - a welder - well if it's close to home I might be able to find a friend who can assist.
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You definately have a good point above about the zipties being quick and easy. I don't have a welder. I took it to a welding shop, told him what I wanted, took him 5 minutes and he charged $10.00. The way mine is welded it will never come apart, I will break something else in the diff before the welds fail.
I installed the axle support bushing, new seals and axles. Its been a year now and I offroad alot with not one problem.
I go hunting and fishing on my own and the fact the ziptie could break would always be on my mind.
For me the extra day the diff was out of the truck is worth not being stranded in the woods because a ziptie broke, but the ziptie thing is an excellent idea for a quick fix.
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I don't have decent welding skills (yet) so I took my diff over to a friend who can "weld bubblegum" if you need him to, as Norm always says. He TIG'd the four spot welds. It doesn't require much metal penetration and therefore doesn't hurt the heat treatment on the ring gear teeth. The actuator compressor pushed the ring over with just 6-8 pounds of air pressure, so light tac welds hold just fine. A good investment for the pocket change it cost and the peace of mind knowing that when you shift into 4WD it's there. Conversely, IF I ever needed or wanted to do something different in the front end... I'd just buy another used gear cluster for the front. Short of the front gears or bearings failing.... the only other change I imagine I would opt to go for in the future would be stepping up the gears to 5.12s.