ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Suzuki 4x4 Forum => Topic started by: Trail_Tough on June 24, 2009, 03:55:21 PM
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I just noticed that on the web page today. Weird. :D
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WOW!! Cool but expensive.
Derek
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sweet does any one have one of these
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It seems like it might be expensive but I doubt if my R&Ps were much cheaper by the time that they were installed. Only problem that I can see with that is that is it might be too low without changing the R&Ps as well.
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That's pretty cool, but I'm already geared too LOW for the highway. From 4.30 to 5.13, on 32" BFG's and it still turns too many rpms ( for my taste) at 70 mph, 4200. What I want is a bolt in, switchable, OVERDRIVE, or for some elictrictronics genius ( Rhinoman?) to figure out a way to adapt a later model electronic 4 speed to work with an earlier obd1 3 speed. I want OVERDRIVE!
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By my reckoning swapping 4.3's and 27"s for 5.13's and 32's gives the same rpm ???
I think it's great to see new products hitting the market but I still think that the bigger market would have been with a 1.2 or 1.3 rather than the 1.5 that this has. If you want to run 31's to 33's then you don't really have good solution available. I know TT have said that this will let you run 33's but you have to buy the Undertaker, get the tailshaft shortened and still buy R&P's as well and in my books that's a lot of $$$ to run a relatively common tyre and you are still turning more revs than before. If only somebody would fund a run of 5.83's there'd be a lot of happy people out there.
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Very NICE!!!! 8) Finally a solution to gearing issues now that the 5.83's are gone; and it addresses every day driving too 8)
BTW: not that expensive when you account for no access top 5.83's any more. If we could still get them, this is a one piece install that takes care of the sluggish on road driving and low range reduction. 8)
Zig
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I think your comments need to be considered with respect to tyre size. If you want to run the Undertaker you still need to add in the cost of getting a tailshaft shortened and balanced at the very least and most probably the cost of new R^P's as well and even then it won't be that suitable for those running under 33". Compare that to just the cost of new R&P's.
The 1.5 reduction actually corrects the rpm back to stock for a change from 27"to 40".
To keep the revs at stock if you atarted with 5.125 and you add the Undertaker if you then swapped to 4.875's you'd be running 38" and with 4.625's you'd be running 36"and witth 4.30's you'd be running 34".
Now you can carry a few more rpm to help with dealing with the added rotational mass of the larger rubber but you don't want to go too far from the factory ideal for optimum running.
If you wanted to run larger rubber such as 35"+ then you have always had the option of adapting the Sammi t-case and Rock 4x have the Shogun available for this.
As I have said there is still no solution for all those wanting to run under say a 33"which I reckon would be most owners. Do I like what Brent has createdd absolutely but in my opinion it would be even better if you could order it with a 1.2 option as well.
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I suppose I should have included in the original press release that the Undertaker also works just right with 4.30's and 31" tires. As well as the 4.62's with 33's and the 4.88's with 35's. All of which are viable solutions using factory Sidekick gear ratios - which will simply require swapping out with preset up used 3rd members from a wrecking yard. No need to buy "special" ring and pinions....which are too small and too small of pinions and are too weak for reliable operation which is the reason 5.83's are not available anymore.
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I hesitate to post this, because I've always appreciated how much TT supports Suzuki enthusiasts. But, I really don't understand how this product is a good value when compared to what's already on the market.
Undertaker: $1295.00
* 1.5:1 reduction
* Must buy 4.25:1 gearing ($649) to get lower reduction range than stock
* Looks quick & easy to install (can someone confirm this?)
The Kicker III & Shogun ($675.00 + Cost of Samurai T-case)
* 1.4:1 high-range reduction
* 2x the reduction options:
High-High (stock)
High-Low (stock)
Low-High (lower than stock)
Low-Low (SUPER low range)
* Will need a custom cross-member to install
It's my understanding a custom cross member will need to be made / purchased to install the Kicker / Shogun in a tracker (bolts right up into the Samurai), but with $525 to play with (or $1,175 if compared to undertaker + 4.25 reduction gears), it would be EASY to have one custom fabricated. I can't see a custom piece like that costing much more than $100-$200. With the money left over, you could install some belly armor while you're at it. Or pay a shop to install the reduction box for you (which makes it even easier to install than the Undertaker).
Please help me understand why the Undertaker is, comparatively, a good value.
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That's pretty cool, but I'm already geared too LOW for the highway. From 4.30 to 5.13, on 32" BFG's and it still turns too many rpms ( for my taste) at 70 mph, 4200. What I want is a bolt in, switchable, OVERDRIVE, or for some elictrictronics genius ( Rhinoman?) to figure out a way to adapt a later model electronic 4 speed to work with an earlier obd1 3 speed. I want OVERDRIVE!
Whats an auto? I live in the land of the manual transmission. It shouldn't be too hard to do but autos are very rare over here so it would be pretty much impossible to find one to test with. I've only ever driven one auto (with tiptronic) so I've no idea what the electronics does.
elictrictronics - thats how we spell it when we've been down the pub :D :D
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That's pretty cool, but I'm already geared too LOW for the highway. From 4.30 to 5.13, on 32" BFG's and it still turns too many rpms ( for my taste) at 70 mph, 4200. What I want is a bolt in, switchable, OVERDRIVE, or for some elictrictronics genius ( Rhinoman?) to figure out a way to adapt a later model electronic 4 speed to work with an earlier obd1 3 speed. I want OVERDRIVE!
Why not just install a mechanical automatic volvo transmission? The people who've installed it seem very happy with it, and it's basically just a bolt-up part (since they're built by the same people).
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I suppose I should have included in the original press release that the Undertaker also works just right with 4.30's and 31" tires. As well as the 4.62's with 33's and the 4.88's with 35's. All of which are viable solutions using factory Sidekick gear ratios - which will simply require swapping out with preset up used 3rd members from a wrecking yard. No need to buy "special" ring and pinions....which are too small and too small of pinions and are too weak for reliable operation which is the reason 5.83's are not available anymore.
Please don't take this the wrong way as I think it is a great thing in and of itself but if you are going to be running this then you are also likely to be running lockers and that means you have to add the setup costs there as well instead of just putting in pre-set gears from the junkyard so by the time you have finished the $$$ are getting steeper and you will also need to add in the cost of low range t-case gears on top of this to get a decent crawl ratio particularly as the size of rubber being run increases.
The way I see it you need to buy the Undertaker, buy some more R&P's, get them setup with your lockers, get your tailshaft shortened and balanced and buy some t-case gears and I haven't included all the labor and consumables that will be required. If you're only wanting to run a 31"or 32" then you have a major investment and still are using more rpm than Factory at the same speed. Whereas a set of 5.83's would run considerably less and bring the rpm almost back to stock. Yes, some have issues with 5.83's but then again they have had issues with any ratio which I put down to poor install and the fact that a solid spacer isn't used on the pinion. There are also those that have run 5.83's for years without issue and wheel pretty hard. Yes, you would still be doing pretty much everything I listed as when doing the Undertaker except you have saved the cost of the Undertaker and the tailshaft mods which a substantial amount of $$$.
If you want to run 35"+ then I do believe that this is a good thing but for those that don't want to go there then the 5.83's is a better option imho.
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One of the think most of you are forgetting when talking about stock ratios is not all axles have 5.12 to begin with. Stock for most Toyota axles is 4.11, making this just about perfect for throwing a stock set of Yota axles and a set of 33" tires. :)
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One of the think most of you are forgetting when talking about stock ratios is not all axles have 5.12 to begin with. Stock for most Toyota axles is 4.11, making this just about perfect for throwing a stock set of Yota axles and a set of 33" tires. :)
So now I have to add in the cost of a set of Toy axles and the fab that goes with to make them work. It's getting cheaper and easier by the minute ;)
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So now I have to add in the cost of a set of Toy axles and the fab that goes with to make them work. It's getting cheaper and easier by the minute ;)
Nobody said going big was cheap and easy. :D
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Ok, I have the 5.38 thirds, also the 4.25 transfer gears behind the 3 speed auto, Opinions?
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elictrictronics - thats how we spell it when we've been down the pub :D :D
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Buuuuurp, now that was a good pint! ;)
why not just install a mechanical automatic volvo transmission? The people who've installed it seem very happy with it, and it's basically just a bolt-up part (since they're built by the same people).
I've tried to search for the info, and it sounds like a good solution, just need more INFO! What type and model of car, etc, what mods need to be done, so on and so forth, etc, etc, .
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Volvo discussion continued here: http://www.zukiworld.com/forum/index.php?topic=25582.0 (http://www.zukiworld.com/forum/index.php?topic=25582.0)
Nobody said going big was cheap and easy. :D
But, why choose a solution that's more expensive than it needs to be? Why suggest the Undertaker & Diff gear changes to run 31" tires, when the same result can be achieved at a fraction of the cost via diff gear changes alone? I frequently recommend TT because they have reputable customer service, they've supported our community, and because they're known for suggesting cost effective solutions. They've never tried to talk me into (or suggested) a solution that's more expensive than it needs to be. I suppose that's why I was so shocked when the Undertaker was suggested for tires < 32".
Does it make more sense to install Toyota axles, 5.38 or 5.71 gearing (you'll likely already be in there putting in a locker anyway), and call it done? Or does it make more sense to run stock 4.10 diff gears (saving about $400) to run the Undertaker (cost about $1,300). Or, does it make more sense to run Toy axles, 4.10 diff gears Kicker III / Sumo (cost about $800 w/ Samurai T-case) and have the functionality of the undertaker WITH a doubler? I can think of a LOT of ways to make the Undertaker "useful" for different tire sizes - but not at a $1,300 minimum investment.
I think the Undertaker would make a fantastic solution to 35"+ tires if it cost a lot less. But, with doublers already giving high, mid & low range reduction, and costing 40% less $$$, I really don't get it. What am I missing?
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Volvo discussion continued here: [url]http://www.zukiworld.com/forum/index.php?topic=25582.0[/url] ([url]http://www.zukiworld.com/forum/index.php?topic=25582.0[/url])
Nobody said going big was cheap and easy. :D
But, why choose a solution that's more expensive than it needs to be? Why suggest the Undertaker & Diff gear changes to run 31" tires, when the same result can be achieved at a fraction of the cost via diff gear changes alone? I frequently recommend TT because they have reputable customer service, they've supported our community, and because they're known for suggesting cost effective solutions. They've never tried to talk me into (or suggested) a solution that's more expensive than it needs to be. I suppose that's why I was so shocked when the Undertaker was suggested for tires < 32".
Does it make more sense to install Toyota axles, 5.38 or 5.71 gearing (you'll likely already be in there putting in a locker anyway), and call it done? Or does it make more sense to run stock 4.10 diff gears (saving about $400) to run the Undertaker (cost about $1,300). Or, does it make more sense to run Toy axles, 4.10 diff gears Kicker III / Sumo (cost about $800 w/ Samurai T-case) and have the functionality of the undertaker WITH a doubler? I can think of a LOT of ways to make the Undertaker "useful" for different tire sizes - but not at a $1,300 minimum investment.
I think the Undertaker would make a fantastic solution to 35"+ tires if it cost a lot less. But, with doublers already giving high, mid & low range reduction, and costing 40% less $$$, I really don't get it. What am I missing?
your missing the fact that in this industry EVERYTHING is marketable. you can add a doubler to anything these days, but they are still selling plenty of klune v's at a staggering price. the only people it has to make sence to is Brent and his customers that are going to purchase one, right?
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I like the concept. The only disappointing thing for me is that it is not a 1:1 AND 1.5:1 selectable box :'( . My manual V6 GV is crying out for one :(
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In most any trail build you are already going to need: R&P gearing, Lockers and even axle replacements, usually including the need for drive shaft replacement or spacers.... so none of those is even a consideration for me when looking at this product. I personally just compare this to the pre-driveshaft gearing options: Previously we just had T-Case reductions and The Kicker. Now we have the 1.5 to 1 reduction option of the undertaker to consider while looking at other options.
Good luck with the new product: I'm sure it's as dependable as every thing I have purchased form you in the past... Great stuff!
Zig
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I't might sound expensive, but look at it this way, I have 5.83 diff gears, $800
and I have 4.24:1 T-case gears, $650 plus machine work $40, thats about $1500
guys, and the 5.83s are gone now, so there is really no other choice.
This will also give you almost 3:1 low range, ya not as low as the 4.24s, but with
an auto trans like I have, I could crawl and still do sand dunes, as is now I can't
run sand, not enough wheel speed, this is an excellent compromise IMO
Wild
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Yeah, I think it's a great idea/product too. Now I wish someone would come with a bolt in electric overdrive for the three speeds.
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Very nice. If I ever build another street rig this is what I will put in it. 8)