ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Technical Discussion - Beginner / Repair => Topic started by: Lindenmooch on June 17, 2009, 11:38:39 AM
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Figured this might be an appropriate section for this. Tried a quick search and didn't come up with much. I heard the phrase "80/90" a couple times. What does that mean? And how exactly does one change the diff fluid. Transfer case? What about a manual transmission? And is the front and rear diff the same for the purposes of changing the fluid?
Thanks!
-Mooch
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Transmission and Transfer case you should use the standard 80/90W Gear oil you can pick up at the parts store. For the diffs you can use the 80/90W as well or spring for the Synthetic's. I use a synthetic oil in the front end to help take care of the ARB and the standard oil everywhere else.
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Ok cool. So I can just use 80/90w in all the drivetrain components then. That will save me some money. What is it called though? Gear oil? Diff fluid? Trans fluid?
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It is just standard GL4 gear oil. You need to use GL4 in the transmission and transfer case, as they use brass components that can be damaged by GL5 gear oil. For the diffs you can use GL5.
Synthetics are usually GL5 and can allow for a bit more power and better mileage as they are a lighter oil. Someone will probably chime in with the exact replacement specs for your vehicle but for off-road use most just use the 80/90 GL4 in everything.
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Actually I go the other way - GL5 in both (because GL4 is sort of hard to find) - BUT - it needs to be a "yellow metal" friendly GL5 such as Mobil1 synthetic.
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Alright. Fair enough. GL4 it is then. But how do I change the fluid in all my drivetrain components?
I was kinda hoping this topic would get more attention, so it could help other people that need or want to change their gear oil or diff fluid. Where's someone like Jeremiah when you need them?
Anyway. The diff is kinda easy to figure out just by looking at it...but to be honest..I've never even looked for a way to change the trans fluid in a manual.....or in a transfer case. I'll be wanting to change all those fluids soon...so feel free to chime in! =)
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there are plugs just like the ones in the diffs in the tcase and trans. or the trans might have a bolt head instead. what is this on a sami or tracker? I dont know if there is a difference in them or not. but anyways on the tcase u will see a drain plug that has a square cut out just like on the diffs. it will be at the very bottom in the back pull that and drain. basiclly the same on the trans but it should be on the side. I can get a couple pictures of a tcase if you need it I dont have a man trans anymore so cant help u there.
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Like cmays03 said, there is a drain plug on the bottom and a fill plug usually on the side or in the back of the transmission/transfer case/differential. Basically you fill it up until the oil starts to spill out.
To fill it back up you need to either use a oil container with a hand pump (takes forever, your hand will cramp up), an electric one (they work, but are usually slow and burn out quickly if you buy the cheap ones), or you can get a hand pump similar to this thing (http://www.nextag.com/Moeller-Economy-Fluid-Extractor-633407775/prices-html). You can find them on sale all the time and they are used a lot in marine applications for pulling the oil out through the dipstick on inboard engines.
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Mooch, you need a shop manual!
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No, YOU need a shop manual.....wait.. You're right...I do need one. hmm.
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;D You are CORRECT! I DO need a shop manual, and USE it all the time! Hey, what's that sound? Oh, it's just the Piney's calling, saying "where's Mooch?" There's a waterhole here with your name on it! All kidding aside, you can get a Chiltons or Haynes pretty cheap, that'll show you all the basics, although I wouldn't trust them for in depth technical stuff. If you plan on keeping your rig for awhile, it's a really good investment to get a REAL dealer type service manual. You can find them on ebay sometimes for a fair price. Anywhere from 25 to 75$. Worth every penny when it comes to doing the job right. Now go clean your carpet, it smells like fish!
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I was figuring on just "winging it" when it comes to servicing or repairing the tracker. And then of course, there's always zukiworld. =)
And I actually have a Haynes around here somewhere for some small jobs.
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Where's someone like Jeremiah when you need them?
Working on my Suzuki ::)
Looks like everything's been covered. There's 4 places to change the oil: front diff, rear diff, trans & t-case. As said GL4 or yellow friendly GL5 must be used. I used a "yellow friendly" GL5. I'm not sure how much I trust the "yellow friendly" stuff, but GL4 is getting to be virtually impossible to find (I'm guessing EPA is phasing out GL4?). I've read about people using "regular" GL5, and it's ate up the synchronous gears in a hurry. My synchs are shot, so I have to shift like a truck driver (no drag racing for me).
I use the hand pump. Takes forever, so schedule an hour or two for the job. Recruit your son for the pumping job. The gear oil smells like a sulfur plant took a doo doo (read: use your "shop clothes" when handling the stuff). On the diffs, just re-fill until the oil starts to come out. On the trans and T-case I believe there's a drain hole & a fill hole ??? I'd check the manual, but I'm not at home :-\ Can anyone confirm ??? Next time I do this job, I should just take pics....
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I've been using the Mobil1 75W90 GL5 synthetic in the transmission of my Suzuki Swift going on eight years now - no synchro problems there - I had the tranny out last year to replace the bearings, and the synchros looked just great.
I also put it in my GV about two months back (I've had the GV just over three months), so I'm using the same lube in transmission, transfer case and both diffs.
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Just FYI; I avoid the gear oil pump whenever possible. It takes forever and then some. My usual method is to pull the shift boots and shifter out of the top of the tranny and tcase (just a few bolts and a few minutes). Then I just pour the specified amount of gear oil in through the shifter holes (the capacity listed in the shop manual)...then pull the side plugs to check level. I must have used this method at least 20 times on many different vehicles and it works SO much better than the stupid little plastic pump.
For the diffs, I avoid the pump as well. I just use a quart gear oil bottle with the tip cut down about 50% and squeeze about 1/2 of the bottle in. Then I refill the bottle, and squeeze another half in, etc etc. Only takes a few minutes this way.
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For what it's worth - this does not work on all vehicles, and if you check the FSM for whatever Suzuki you're driving, you'll probably find that Suzuki recommends against it.
The Grand Vitaras have a shifter "extension" that allows the shift to sit several inches behind the transmission (actually over the transfer case), and there's no way you're going to refill the transmission by pouring oil through that - so essentially you have two options, cut a hole in the side of the transmission tunnel opposite the fill plug, or, get underneath with a pump.
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For what it's worth - this does not work on all vehicles, and if you check the FSM for whatever Suzuki you're driving, you'll probably find that Suzuki recommends against it.
The Grand Vitaras have a shifter "extension" that allows the shift to sit several inches behind the transmission (actually over the transfer case), and there's no way you're going to refill the transmission by pouring oil through that
No, it probably doesn't work on all vehicles. It certainly won't work on tcases that shift via linkage. But it does work on the Samurai and Sidekick transmissions and tcases. It also works on the NV4500 and SM465 transmissions, toyota w56 transmission and gear driven tcases. Those are all that I can speak for as they are the only ones I have used this method on.
I just looked, and my 1986 Samurai FSM (Yes, FSM and not haynes or chilton) doesn't recommend against this anywhere, at least that I can find. Don't have FSM's for any other suzuki vehicles.
Don't know if the GV is different than the vitara, but the vitara does have a similar extension that moves the shifter back 6" or so over the tcase. When I refilled the tranny in my vitara, I had it on my workbench for a bearing replacement so I just refilled it with the adapter removed. I no longer own a Vitara tranny (running toy stuff in there now) so I don't know how easy it would be to fill with the tranny still in the vehicle, or if the adapter is open enough to allow for oil flow through it.
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OK - here's what the GV FSM says
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I am looking to do the same on a 95 suzuki sidekick special edition with manualtranny and auto lockers. It has mobile 1 in everything, 50k miles and no change of tranny fluids, just engine and engine oil filters. I see the capacities in the manual, but not wrench size. Is it a square like 3/8 or half inch? The vehicle is my mothers and I do not live with her. I want to take the tool, pan and oil to change everything. Thinking of sychromesh for the trannys and some gl5 for the axles. The tranny is getting harder and harder to shift. Thanks.
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It's just a 3/8 drive ratchet, you can put an extension on it if you wish,
and if it's really tight, you might want to use a breaker bar, or a pipe on
the end of the ratchet
Wild
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The hand pump I got from Harbor Freight works pretty damn good.
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Thaniks. Got 4 bottles of gl5 75w90 for the axles and 4 bottles of synchromesh for the tranny and tranfer case.
Wish me luck.
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The Grand Vitaras have a shifter "extension" that allows the shift to sit several inches behind the transmission (actually over the transfer case), and there's no way you're going to refill the transmission by pouring oil through that - so essentially you have two options, cut a hole in the side of the transmission tunnel opposite the fill plug, or, get underneath with a pump.
As far as I can tell, my Kicks and my GV have the same transmission and transfer case. No "pour it in from the top" on a Sidekick tranny.
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The pour in method works for the T-case
Wild
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Well my weekend was snowed out.
My geo metro I just poured it into the speed o meter hole, then stopped when it spilled from the fill hole.
I got a pump, a few hoses for the job. Do the gear box and transfer case use 3/8 plugs as well?
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Hi everyone!
In case you tried to download the Samurai Factory Service Manual (FSM) or whatever chunk of a Sidekick FSM you could hope to find at suzukiinfo.com and found the bandwidth has been exceeded, try Ack's FAQ. Plenty of bandwidth, '88 Samurai SFM with the 90-92 Supplement AND a '96 Tracker FSM! Do a search for fsm. The link is in my signature, below.
I hope that this helps!
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I used to work in a quick oil change facility.Just a tip:Always crack the filler plug loose first before you drain the unit. Otherwise you might drain the diff and have no way of refilling it.
Ross
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Thanks, got all but the front axle. I made sure I could remove the fill plug before the drain plug so I wont be SOL in refilling it and it drains faster. THe rear axle was easy. It was black oil that came out. I used a short piece of hose and just pressed the bottle against the under side of the rear bump to fill it. I kept running into the problem when it started to ooz out, then I used my finger to check and it wasnt at the fill plug. I filled it a few times before it was finally there.
The transfer case I just poured it in. There is enough clearance under the car to do so. Now I see why it feels soo tippy. THat oil was medium brown and had 2 cunks in it like small teeth or a 1/4 of a match stick.
THe transmision fluid looked like mud. It was hard to crack either plug loose. I used a 3ft breaker bar on both. I filled it by running the hose through the engine compartment and filled it from up there. The drain plug was covered in what looked like silt.
I have a skid plate that blocked the front one and next month going to change it and engine oil n filter.
I changed the pcv valve per the book and went for a test drive. Man, it was quieter. Way mroe til I hit 50mph. It easily slipped into any gear going down the road. Now upshifting to engine brake it gave some resistant going backwards throughthe gears. But man, it was quieter and shifted with ease.
Best of all all I needed was a 3/8 socket square to crack the plugs. Previous scions and vws I have owned required a moneter allen wrench that is hard to find locally or cheap.
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LOL, ya VW uses a 17mm plug, we used to take a 17mm head bolt and weld a handle onto it for a wrench,
works well and is cheep and easy to build
Wild
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Hello everyone, I'm new to this forum & a new owner of a 2000 Tracker 4cyl 4X4. so far I'm lovin it but need opinions on using "Royal Purple" in the auto trans, transfer case & diffs. Has anyone else used this fluid, is this NOT recommended in Suzuki drivetrains? I can't find any info from Royal purple saying not to use it.
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I hear good things about Royal Purple, but the price, ouch :o
Wild
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Ive had a bad experience with changing the oil in a used van. I used regular fluid as it was brown and smelled aweful. It went from shifting well to slipping. I late found out its best not to change hte fluid in a used auto tanny.
My project had mobile 1 in it. I think its quieter without it. I used havoline for the diffs and penzoil synchro mesh for the gear boxes.
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I just changed my dear oil for the first time. In the rear diff i used Lucas Synthetic SAE 75w-90. Could i use this same lube in the trans and t-case? I can't find anything on it that says "yellow friendly"........
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GL4 is the safest for a Suzuki transmission. You'll find markings on the container indicating what "GL" rating the product has.
Normal GL5 has been found to be harmful to the "yellow" or brass components in transmissions - specifically the scnchronisers. Be sure to carefully examine the packaging for indications that the GL5 product is safe fore use in transmissions containing brass or "yellow" components.
To be safe, I would just use a GL4 lubricant.
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I tried a 75w-90 from napa that states it meets or exceeds GL4-GL5 and is supposedly yellow metal safe. It has worked fine during the warm months, but now with overnight temps driopping into the 30-low 40's at night the trans is showing it's ass! The gears all grind big time unless double clutched and rev matched(and still will crunch now and then) for the first half hour or so until nice and warmed up.
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Just changed front and rear diff fluids last two nights ago on my SX4. Also bought the pump from Harbor Freight (had to do the rear diff on my SX4, too).
My fill plugs (front and rear) were nearly stripped out, and had to use Vise Grips to get the plugs out. Luickily, they did come off pretty easily. Going to go get a couple new fill plugs. Drain plugs were OK.
- Andy
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GL4 is the safest for a Suzuki transmission. You'll find markings on the container indicating what "GL" rating the product has.
Normal GL5 has been found to be harmful to the "yellow" or brass components in transmissions - specifically the scnchronisers. Be sure to carefully examine the packaging for indications that the GL5 product is safe fore use in transmissions containing brass or "yellow" components.
To be safe, I would just use a GL4 lubricant.
This stuff claims that it exceeds GL4 and GL5
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GL4 is the safest for a Suzuki transmission. You'll find markings on the container indicating what "GL" rating the product has.
Normal GL5 has been found to be harmful to the "yellow" or brass components in transmissions - specifically the scnchronisers. Be sure to carefully examine the packaging for indications that the GL5 product is safe fore use in transmissions containing brass or "yellow" components.
To be safe, I would just use a GL4 lubricant.
This stuff claims that it exceeds GL4 and GL5
If you're putting in a differential - fine - if you're putting in a transmission or a transfer case that contains brass synchos - then, if you don't see anything that says yellow metal friendly or syncho friendly etc. - use at your own risk.
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If you're putting in a differential - fine - if you're putting in a transmission or a transfer case that contains brass synchos - then, if you don't see anything that says yellow metal friendly or syncho friendly etc. - use at your own risk.
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Yes, thank you, will just avoid this. Do you know a good brand that makes sythetic "yellow safe" lube for t-case and tranny?
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I use Mobil1 full synth - it IS a GL-5, and you won't see anything about yellow metals on the label, however, a visit to their website should show something along the lines of safe for use with copper & it's alloys.
Of course - my earlier warning still stands - if YOU don't see anything about yellow metal friendly etc - use at YOUR own risk - I've been using it in the transmission of all my Suzukis for many years so far I'm happy with it - unfortunately - the Exxon-Mobil distribution network here was bought out and it's no longer available, so next time around I will have to use something else.
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My fill plugs (front and rear) were nearly stripped out, and had to use Vise Grips to get the plugs out. Luickily, they did come off pretty easily. Going to go get a couple new fill plugs. Drain plugs were OK.
- Andy
This is, more often than not, caused by the use of a 3/8" square drive ratchet handle - rather than the correct 10mm square drive tool - 10mm adapters to fit your 3/8" ratchet are available at reasonable prices, they are used on Ford & Volvo, and if all else fails - try ebay.
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Has anyone used Pennzoil Synchromesh for the trans? It is called and listed as a MTF and I had heard it was also GL4 compatible, but it only states it replaces a GM MTF on the bottle and doesnt specifically state it is GL4 compatible, though it does state it is synchro and yellow metal safe.
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Umm - it's not available where I am, but if it were, I would be using it - I've heard good things about it from the guys over at teamswift.net.
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My fill plugs (front and rear) were nearly stripped out, and had to use Vise Grips to get the plugs out. Luickily, they did come off pretty easily. Going to go get a couple new fill plugs. Drain plugs were OK.
- Andy
This is, more often than not, caused by the use of a 3/8" square drive ratchet handle - rather than the correct 10mm square drive tool - 10mm adapters to fit your 3/8" ratchet are available at reasonable prices, they are used on Ford & Volvo, and if all else fails - try ebay.
Good to know. I didn't know that. I'll be sure to pick one up. Thanks!
- Andy
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My fill plugs (front and rear) were nearly stripped out, and had to use Vise Grips to get the plugs out. Luickily, they did come off pretty easily. Going to go get a couple new fill plugs. Drain plugs were OK.
- Andy
This is, more often than not, caused by the use of a 3/8" square drive ratchet handle - rather than the correct 10mm square drive tool - 10mm adapters to fit your 3/8" ratchet are available at reasonable prices, they are used on Ford & Volvo, and if all else fails - try ebay.
Kudos to you.
I did not know that.
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http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/8mm-10mm-Square-Drain-Fill-Plug-Sockets-Ford-Volvo-Saab-/360394693442?pt=Motors_Automotive_Tools&hash=item53e9329b42 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/8mm-10mm-Square-Drain-Fill-Plug-Sockets-Ford-Volvo-Saab-/360394693442?pt=Motors_Automotive_Tools&hash=item53e9329b42)
This is where I got mine - the 10mm is what you need - KD Tools used to sell one, but they seem to have discontinued it.
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[url]http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/8mm-10mm-Square-Drain-Fill-Plug-Sockets-Ford-Volvo-Saab-/360394693442?pt=Motors_Automotive_Tools&hash=item53e9329b42[/url] ([url]http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/8mm-10mm-Square-Drain-Fill-Plug-Sockets-Ford-Volvo-Saab-/360394693442?pt=Motors_Automotive_Tools&hash=item53e9329b42[/url])
This is where I got mine - the 10mm is what you need - KD Tools used to sell one, but they seem to have discontinued it.
My auto parts store sells a 10mm allen head that is for a 3/8 ratchet, wouldn't that work just fine???
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[url]http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/8mm-10mm-Square-Drain-Fill-Plug-Sockets-Ford-Volvo-Saab-/360394693442?pt=Motors_Automotive_Tools&hash=item53e9329b42[/url] ([url]http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/8mm-10mm-Square-Drain-Fill-Plug-Sockets-Ford-Volvo-Saab-/360394693442?pt=Motors_Automotive_Tools&hash=item53e9329b42[/url])
This is where I got mine - the 10mm is what you need - KD Tools used to sell one, but they seem to have discontinued it.
My auto parts store sells a 10mm allen head that is for a 3/8 ratchet, wouldn't that work just fine???
the 10mm allen has 6 sides, the 10mm square pipe drive is 4 sided
Umm - it's not available where I am, but if it were, I would be using it - I've heard good things about it from the guys over at teamswift.net.
I put in some synchromesh this afternoon, I cant wait for a cold morning to see how it performs, LOL
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My fill plugs (front and rear) were nearly stripped out, and had to use Vise Grips to get the plugs out. Luickily, they did come off pretty easily. Going to go get a couple new fill plugs. Drain plugs were OK.
- Andy
This is, more often than not, caused by the use of a 3/8" square drive ratchet handle - rather than the correct 10mm square drive tool - 10mm adapters to fit your 3/8" ratchet are available at reasonable prices, they are used on Ford & Volvo, and if all else fails - try ebay.
Or by a hamfisted hammer mechanic. I've been using a 3/8ths drive ratchet in my Zuk plugs since I've owned it. There still fine.
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Or by a hamfisted hammer mechanic. I've been using a 3/8ths drive ratchet in my Zuk plugs since I've owned it. There still fine.
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I would agree with you because the PO of my samurai tightened everything down as if no one would ever need to get things off, lol, when i went to use my 3/8s drive end on my fill plug it about stripped it out, if it gives me trouble after i get the square head end then i will heat it up a little with a torch (without heating it up too much not to get the oil too hot) and bang on it a few times and then try it again.
Does anyone recommend any products you can apply to fill and drain plugs as to not make them so hard to get back out, like an ANTI sieze lube?
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They are uber cheap at any parts store, get new plugs and then add a few wraps of teflon tape or liquid thread sealant, as they are a pipe plug thread and not machine threads. Pipe plugs are not meant to be tightened down with alot of torque. Because pipe threads are tapered they can act as wedges and crack cases very easily when over tightened, then they weep oil thru these minute cracks.
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My fill plugs (front and rear) were nearly stripped out, and had to use Vise Grips to get the plugs out. Luickily, they did come off pretty easily. Going to go get a couple new fill plugs. Drain plugs were OK.
- Andy
This is, more often than not, caused by the use of a 3/8" square drive ratchet handle - rather than the correct 10mm square drive tool - 10mm adapters to fit your 3/8" ratchet are available at reasonable prices, they are used on Ford & Volvo, and if all else fails - try ebay.
Or by a hamfisted hammer mechanic. I've been using a 3/8ths drive ratchet in my Zuk plugs since I've owned it. There still fine.
Me too. And I think you'll find that 99% of zuk people use the 3/8" drive to remove the 10mm plugs. 3/8"=9.5250mm.
If you happen to run across one that is kinda messed up, or acts like it is going to round out, I have found that using an air impact gun on low setting will usually remove them pretty quickly without stripping (yes, I use the 3/8" square drive with that).
Then when I go to put them back in, I torque them to spec. Ironically, it seems like most diff drain plugs are NOT tight enough and leak oil. Seem like most people are afraid to tighten the drain plug too much. :-\
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Or by a hamfisted hammer mechanic. I've been using a 3/8ths drive ratchet in my Zuk plugs since I've owned it. There still fine.
Your car, your tools, your choice - 3/8" is 9.5mm, and most 3/8 square drive ratchets & extensions have rounded corners - when you put it into the recess it's a sloppy fit, and if a previous owner (or his hamfisted hammer mechanic) tightened the plug down, then using the wrong tool increases your chances of destroying the plug - see FinishTheGame's post.
Faced with a situation where I need to get the plug out NOW and the only tool available is a 3/8 ratchet, I'll use it - but - in the comfort of my drive-way when the right tool is available I won't.
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I also ran into damaged/frozen tranny/diff plugs due to PO overwrenching with 3/8" drive (undersize) in 10mm plugs in my recently aquired 95 Tracker. My solution, after extensive search, was to purchase Snap-on Stock# PMM410A which is 3/8" drive and described as follows- Socket, Metric, Pipe Plug, External, 10mm. It is currently listed for $17.85 + S&H, pricey for a single item but, it is Made in USA. I have yet to try it out to see if it solves all my problems (it's a little cool in my "external" garage - carcover only), but I'm guardedly optimistic! ???
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I'm currently running Redline synthetic GL-4 in my trans at 7.00 bucks a quart. It shifts nice and runs quiet but when it is cold it will be chunky or grind in 1-2 & 2-3 shifts.
Does NAPA carry penzoil?
Thanks!
Kj
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For the drain / fill plugs if they give you trouble coming out or starting chase the threads with a tap once removed. Then after you change your fluids use a thread anti-cease compound and you won't have any future troubles. Most auto part stores or hardware stores in the plumbing section carry anti-cease.
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I'm currently running Redline synthetic GL-4 in my trans at 7.00 bucks a quart. It shifts nice and runs quiet but when it is cold it will be chunky or grind in 1-2 & 2-3 shifts.
Does NAPA carry penzoil?
Thanks!
Kj
NAPA does carry the Pennzoil synchromesh
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I have a stock 86 sammy and the only thing I see that resembles a transmission or transfer case filler plug has what looks like a well rounded 21 mm bolt head. Am I looking in the wrong place???
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NO, that is the right place. At some point they switched plugs, be careful that you don't loose it as that plug has a different threading then the ones you can take out with a ratchet.
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Thanks Drone. There's no chance of losing them. I can't get them out. ???
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Some heat will sometimes help it break loose. Otherwise it's just a lot of time with a pipe wrench.
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Thanks Drone. I do have a pipe wrench somewhere. If I do get them out, do you know where I can buy some new ones?
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I would give Trail Tough a call. They picked up Hawks old inventory so chances are they will have one.
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Hey all, I use a suction gun to fill the cases with oil. It's cheap and works great. Kinda messy but no more than pouring it in.
It looks like a grease gun except where the pump on the grease gun is, the suction gun has a hose. You can suck the oil out of the jug and squirt it into the fill plug hole. Then I store it in a garbage sack because gear oil will get on everything. Also the sack keeps it clean for next time.
Bob