ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Suzuki 4x4 Forum => Topic started by: explosivo on July 29, 2004, 06:13:23 PM
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Ok, every time I look at my IFS there seems to be something wrong with it, and it's really starting to piss me off. This is making me seriously want to start looking into a $500< SAS... most likely from a Samurai. A big part of this is that the cost of getting a steel front diff housing and 3rd member is going to be fairly expensive in it's own, plus there's still going to be CV issues.
Now, how does a difference in width between the front and back axles affect on-and off-road performance? The Sammy front axle is about 5-6" narrower, correct? If I were to use ~1.5" spacers (or 1.5" less backspaced wheels), would there be a problem with the front being then 2-3" narrower? Samurais are 5 on 4.5", correct? The Spidertrax 5 on 4.5" to 5 on 5.5" wheelspacer/adapter will work for this application to give me more width and let me maintain my current bolt pattern, correct?
Also, what coils would be good for this application? I have the Calmini 3" lift, and would probably leave the back alone, so I want the front to ride at about the current height... anyone have any info on this? Would any of the coils here (http://www.spidertrax.com/suspension_afc.htm) work for this application?
What kind of parts are out there for increasing the strength of the Samurai axle? I remember hearing something about supertough birfield joints... are there also tougher axle shafts? What about my 5.12 Tracker gears... will they fit on the Samurai carrier?
The steering boxes on the Samurai and older Trackers are pretty similar, correct? So the steering components needed for this project could be easily moved from the Sammy to the Track?
Last thing: will Samurai axles with 5.12's hold up to 33's or 35's?
Parts list:
1 used Samurai front axle and steering components -- $?
2 1.5" wheel spacers -- $124.95
2 front springs -- $?
2 front shocks -- $?
Please add any information that you can think of for this kind of swap... I really have no clue where to go, and any advice is appreciated.
Thanks.
EDIT: I was wondering if any of you with coil sprung Samurais (nc_zuk :)) could take some detailed pictures of all the links and brackets up front to give me an idea on angles and how everything is positioned. That would be awesome.
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Dude the words SAS and cheap shouldnt be used in the same sentence. :P
There are a lot of hidden costs and its a lot of work so before you go hacking out all your front suspension components Make sur eyou really want to go through with it.
I know of a few Trackers in Vancouver that run Samurai axels up front. Like you mentioned, they use Wheel spacers to make up the width difference.
The only problem with the use of large spacers is that they add extra leverage to the Birfield and bearing packs, so your front end components will wear faster than usual.
What kind of parts are out there for increasing the strength of the Samurai axle? I remember hearing something about supertough birfield joints... are there also tougher axle shafts?
You can get Rings that strengthen the Birf joins so they wont blow on you as easily. You can also get stronger Axels. Calmini makes both of these.
The steering boxes on the Samurai and older Trackers are pretty similar, correct? So the steering components needed for this project could be easily moved from the Sammy to the Track?
You can use your sidekick steering box with the Sammy linkage. Calmini makes a drop pitman arm specially made for this application.
What about my 5.12 Tracker gears... will they fit on the Samurai carrier?
I know its possible. I forget if their is an adapter plate to fit the sidekick 3rd on the Sammy housing, or if the plate is just to fit the carrier. I recall hearing that Hawk's carries them.
Last thing: will Samurai axles with 5.12's hold up to 33's or 35's?
That depends on how hard you drive :P
I know Mac use to run 35's on his Sammy. With the Birf rings and stronger axels, I think it would hold up pretty good. Though with 5.12 gearing 35's would be the pits.
Parts list:
1 used Samurai front axle and steering components:--$?
2 1.5" wheel spacers -- $124.95
2 front springs -- $?
2 front shocks -- $?
1) I was going to do an Sammy SAS swap back in the day, and I picked up my front axel for $100. I never got around to getting the steering components but I figure they would run you about the same
2) Springs: Since the front spring towers sit lower than the back. I think I'm right to believe that you will need shorter springs than the back. The current Calmini ones may do the trick if your not going to lift the truck any higher.
3) Shocks: You would have to experiment with what length will match your coils.
As far as mounting goes... if you look at the Calmini SAS they bolted a shock mount onto the strut tower. (pretty classy) I would probably go that route.
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If you want to do it cheaply, I would go for wrangler leaf springs or rear sammy springs in the front. Less fabricating needed and less complicated. Stay with 33's or lower even with chromoly anything. Get a hold of some birfeild rings and chromoly axles for the front sammy and kick rear axle. You can use your front diff in the sammy axle, but your alum. housing is weaker than the steel sammy one.
Look into buying custom 2" spacers for the front or custom tube the front axle and respline your rear axles to fit in the front.
I wont even get into gearing combos. I am normally a sammy only guy, but I really would love to do this to a kick.
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i have this set up in my truck it works very well here are soem specs for ya
well i used a sami axle in the front with 1.5" wheel spacers, with rear sami leaf springs in the front as the axle is too narrow to mount coils correctly due to the width of the sidekick frame i made dropped coil spring mounts in the back. i am currently running 32" tires and a front locker this set up has worked quite well for me in the past couple of years
here are some pictures of my set up
http://www.cardomain.com/memberpage/553823
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Hey Chopper, nice ride. Looks a lot like mine! You have the same hard top as me (which seems to be rare), the same wheels, and it's red. Of course my tires are smaller and I don't have SAS though. Just thought that was cool you have the same top... And in one of the pics you have the "skinned" rear bumper, like I used to have :)
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If you want to do it cheaply, I would go for wrangler leaf springs or rear sammy springs in the front. Less fabricating needed and less complicated. Stay with 33's or lower even with chromoly anything. Get a hold of some birfeild rings and chromoly axles for the front sammy and kick rear axle. You can use your front diff in the sammy axle, but your alum. housing is weaker than the steel sammy one.
Look into buying custom 2" spacers for the front or custom tube the front axle and respline your rear axles to fit in the front.
I wont even get into gearing combos. I am normally a sammy only guy, but I really would love to do this to a kick.
I typed my post out pretty late last night, and I've had some time to think about some things (I have a boring job :D). I think leafs up front is what I would do if I did this, as coils are going to make this project many, many times more expensive and complicated. The only thing that concerns me is the combination of the 3" lift in back (coils) and leafs in front... would this combiniation be alright with either Jeep springs or rear Sammy springs? Flex isn't top priority (although it's nice), since most of the offroading I do is in the mud... not a lot of other stuff... Plus I figure an SAS'd kick with leafs will flex better than my IFS kick does right now with coils (I mean just look at heathers! ;D).
Also, about the gearing, would the ring and pinion from a kick fit into the Sammy axle? I thought I read somewhere that that works...
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Before you actually start to perform the swap to SAS, I'd also look at the option of using a Dana30 or 44 from a Jeep CJ setup or a Scout. I'm not sure of the wms (wheel mount surface) width of those, but they do come in different widths depending on the year and are probably closer to what you'll need. I know the earlier years of the CJs are not as wide as the later years (76-86). I have a 74 CJ6 with a D30 front end with drum brakes. To upgrade to discs, simple as adding the knuckles out of a CJ D30 with discs. To add, there are 5.13's for it as well as lockers galore.
Using a simple leaf suspension would be the easiest and simplest to add the SA upfront.
Have you reviewed Heather's page about such a swap. I think they posted the costs of such a setup also. Do a search on the forum and you may find it. IIRC, sometime near Jeep Safari time (Easter).
The CJ D30/44 also have the same mounting 5 lug and large center hole to clear the hub/lockout and you could use your current wheels.
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In response to your question: "Samurais are 5 on 4.5", correct?" Samis came with a 5 on 5.5 bolt pattern ;)
Have you considered a Toyota front axel ??? It may solve your width and strenth issues and parts are easy to find and cheap. I am running 35s on my Sami and once my stock axels explode, I am coverting to the stronger axels. 8)
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Also, about the gearing, would the ring and pinion from a kick fit into the Sammy axle? I thought I read somewhere that that works...
you can buy a kit to put you tracker gears out of the front into the front steel sammy. :D and for the quick SAS i would go with leafs. soo, what are you doing with your front calmini stuff??? i call first dibs! ;D
stu
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Before you actually start to perform the swap to SAS, I'd also look at the option of using a Dana30 or 44 from a Jeep CJ setup or a Scout. I'm not sure of the wms (wheel mount surface) width of those, but they do come in different widths depending on the year and are probably closer to what you'll need. I know the earlier years of the CJs are not as wide as the later years (76-86). I have a 74 CJ6 with a D30 front end with drum brakes. To upgrade to discs, simple as adding the knuckles out of a CJ D30 with discs. To add, there are 5.13's for it as well as lockers galore.
Using a simple leaf suspension would be the easiest and simplest to add the SA upfront.
Have you reviewed Heather's page about such a swap. I think they posted the costs of such a setup also. Do a search on the forum and you may find it. IIRC, sometime near Jeep Safari time (Easter).
The CJ D30/44 also have the same mounting 5 lug and large center hole to clear the hub/lockout and you could use your current wheels.
The biggest reason I wanted to go with a Samurai axle is the fact that after I get the axle, I already have the 5.12's from a parts kick to throw in it... buying gears for a Dana or Toy axle would and a couple hundred dollars in cost.
And yes, I followed Heather and Nate's progress on their SAS kick. The questions about mixing coils and leafs actually comes from that... I remember one of them mentioning something about getting the proper leafs to match the coils or something like that, so they just did leafs all around. :)
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In response to your question: "Samurais are 5 on 4.5", correct?" Samis came with a 5 on 5.5 bolt pattern ;)
Have you considered a Toyota front axel ??? It may solve your width and strenth issues and parts are easy to find and cheap. I am running 35s on my Sami and once my stock axels explode, I am coverting to the stronger axels. 8)
Excellent. Then I don't need to worry about bolt pattern adapters then ;)
I have considered a toy axle, but if I did that, I'd rather just get a donor truck, and nab the entire driveline. Plus the additional cost of getting them geared low, as mentioned in the above post :)
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you can buy a kit to put you tracker gears out of the front into the front steel sammy. :D and for the quick SAS i would go with leafs. soo, what are you doing with your front calmini stuff??? i call first dibs! ;D
stu
Well, if I do an SAS, I'll obviously be selling the Calmini components up front ;)
Unfortunately for you, I wouldn't get your hopes up. Even though I'm pretty sure I want to do this, it'll probably be a winter/spring/summer project next year :-/
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Well, if I do an SAS, I'll obviously be selling the Calmini components up front ;)
Unfortunately for you, I wouldn't get your hopes up. Even though I'm pretty sure I want to do this, it'll probably be a winter/spring/summer project next year :-/
dude, as long as you arn't going to sell it for what i could buy it new for, i can wait. ;)
stu
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dude, as long as you arn't going to sell it for what i could buy it new for, i can wait. ;)
stu
I'll be sure to let you know if I go through with this project ;)
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Looked up some parts and am starting to compile a more complete list of parts and prices:
Samurai Axle and steering linkage -- $~150 (est.)
Birfield cups and forged shafts -- $340
Calmini Drop Pitman arm -- $120
Leafs and shocks -- $250 (est.)
Misc. odds and ends -- $100
That already puts the price to almost a grand...
Also, chopper, did you do yours spring over? And you used stock rear leafs, correct?
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my frotn is set up soa with the missign overload it flexes very well like this
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Missing overload?? ???
Also, if you don't mind, could you take some pics of your front axle setup so that I have some idea of what I'm getting into? Specifically how the leafs are mounted and the steering is set up.
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Missing overload?? ???
Also, if you don't mind, could you take some pics of your front axle setup so that I have some idea of what I'm getting into? Specifically how the leafs are mounted and the steering is set up.
Ditto.
Planning on a SAS w/Yota axles (just got Yoto parts truck ;D)
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Ditto.
Planning on a SAS w/Yota axles (just got Yoto parts truck ;D)
No shit?
How much did that run ya? Just nabbing the axles, or is the going to be an engine swap in the near future? ;D
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The truck is a running truck but I'm still keeping it Suzuki pwered, minus the Yota Axels ;D
The truck ran me 7 bills, Not too bad for a running truck but a little (lot) more than I thought of spending :-/
Hopefully in the end it'll be worth it. This way I dont have to worry about widening the axles, the down side is the yota axles gears don't go as high (or low ;))
It could be a winter project.
To make it easier, I'm sticking with the front and rear leaf springs.
In theory ;)
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, the down side is the yota axles gears don't go as high (or low ;))
you won't notice a difference between 5.83's and the available toy 5.71's.
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5.71's have a vary small pinion and WILL break. i would never use them in anything but a show truck.
stu
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I already have the 5:83s in the Tracker, so they wouldn't be any smaller ;D And besides, I could buy Yota 3rd members alot cheaper.
Kind've like owning a chevy ;D
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i will take sum pics tommorw to show the detailed work involved my next upgrade is goin to toy axles too but set up with the same suspention.
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5.71's have a vary small pinion and WILL break.  i would never use them in anything but a show truck.
stu
I totally agree...when they are installed in a (heavier) Toyota truck on 37's. I bet they would be fine in a Tracker with 33-35's. Its a small pinion but I bet its still bigger than the Tracker 5.83 pinion
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Excellent. Then I don't need to worry about bolt pattern adapters then ;)
Toyota axles are 6-lug axles.
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 i would never use them in anything but a show truck.
stu
Would be a waste of money, then, wouldn't it?
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Heres was the doner. Cleaned up pretty good. Almost too good :-*
Selling it to my lil bro so he can wheel with it instead of driving an oversized Dodge ;D
(http://www.eye-irritant.com/august2004/83%20yota%20right%20front.jpg)
Guess I'm staying all Suzuki ;D
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Toyota axles are 6-lug axles.
I know that. But I've already established that I'll probably be going with a Sammy axle due to the fact that there are some parts that I can use from my Tracker with it to keep the overall cost down. :)
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I have a widened sammy front for sale, already built. All I need to build is the steering and assemble the whole thing. The housing has been retubed with 3/16" wall DOM tubing. The shafts are Lifetime Guarantee chro-moly shafts and birfs, 26 spline all the way through, not redone Subaru. They are made from a very well known long term company that has been in business for over 60 years, no fly by night imitation warrantee. You break them, you get new ones.
Anyway, long story made short, I have a soon to be finished widened sammy front that will be ready for use in a kick, less a small diff. It will handle a locker easily.
If you are interested, send me a pm.
Thanks, yes I can build more.
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I think I've talked to you about widened sammy front axles before... unfortunately just the axle would be more than the cap on my SAS project :o. Otherwise I would because I assume they are damn good axles (the same Heather and Nate are using in their kick, right?).
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The ones that are coming with this and the rest of my front ends are different than the ones in previous versions, mine and Heather's included. The shafts and birfs are made by a different outfit, and come with a Lifetime Guarantee.
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Same cost? Higher? I'm cheap and lazy.
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About the same cost.
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The Tracker/Kick 3rd member fits like a glove into the front Sammi housing. No extra parts needed.
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The Tracker/Kick 3rd member fits like a glove into the front Sammi housing. No extra parts needed.
Does the kick rear steel carrier fit into the front Sammy axle? If so, I think I might be all set.
Otherwise I'll have to have one of those special machined sammy carriers made up for my axle :-/
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didnt u just pay for that calmini 3" sus lift lol..and now u want to go sas..sigh
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Yeah, I bought that lift about 6 months ago... I just HATE CV shafts... I've had to take each one out two or three times a piece to change the boots or put them back together after they pull apart. >:(
I'm just not a happy camper.
Plus, these are future plans... the far, far future of next summer or the summer after...
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Does the kick rear steel carrier fit into the front Sammy axle? If so, I think I might be all set.
Otherwise I'll have to have one of those special machined sammy carriers made up for my axle :-/
No, the kick rear steel won't fit in the sammy, either end without a hybrid housing of one way shape or form.
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Why not leave the rear diff as is, and and swap the front kick' 3rd member(that's the one that fits) into the front sammi housing for your SAS front diff. (mabey I'm confused)
 If you need a hybrid housing, however...I make them.<--Jay
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How much for a hybrid front sammy/kick axle? Are you using resplined rear axles up front or chromoly. Plus which birf's are you using, sammy or subaru?
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I am building rear hybrid housings, and assembled units. If I knew there was a call for front hybrid housings, I'd be happy to look into the cost of building them.
What qualities would you look for in a front housing? Track width? Stronger front axles? Birfs, or U-joints? Would it be set up for leafs or coils??
Hit me with some specs. <---Jay
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Why not leave the rear diff as is, and and swap the front kick' 3rd member(that's the one that fits) into the front sammi housing for your SAS front diff. (mabey I'm confused)
If you need a hybrid housing, however...I make them.<--Jay
Front 3rd: aluminum
Rear 3rd: steel
I do plan on leaving the rear alone for the SAS, I just wanted to know if it was possible to fit the rear 3rd member from my parts kick into the front Samurai axle, which it seems it isn't. :-/
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If you want the widened sammy front for a kick, or a hybrid front, I make them.
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like I said.....hit me with some specs.
And the cost of yours is>idaholwb?
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I am thinking of along the lines of a kick or sammy front 3rd member with sammy front knuckles. Thicker axle tubes and 26 spline front shafts and birfs. Cromoly would be nice but not mandatory. As for suspension setup, my choice , you just make the axle and I will take care of all the suspension to keep it simple and cost effective. Maybe able to offer custom lengths also.
Basically a economic version of the big or little Suzana that is in production.
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So...You keep the Samurai front knuckles/outters, go for stronger axle tubes, Stronger axles and birfs, and custom lengths.
What is the favorable range of widths?(wms-wms)
I was thinking of something that uses larger bearings and spindles, bigger brakes, and a bigger ring and pinnion. Mabey rebuildable u-joints.
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Ideally my thought was a direct replacement to handle 33"-34" tire range. Keep either the rear kick 3rd member or the sammy front with rear spider gears. Cromoly front everything, like he was mentioning and thicker custom axle tubes to choice of widths.
Of course bigger brakes and ujoints instead of birfs would be nice. But that would be a Suzana, not really as cost effective as my planned concept. Just reusing sammy or kick center housings and sammy axle tube ends. These parts are readily available and cheaper and easier to acquire than yota axle now days.
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ummm i think hes trying to keep in low budget guys ;)
stu
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 These parts are readily available and cheaper and easier to acquire than yota axle now days.
Gee, I just found a Yota for 200 bucks today in a tow yard. ;D
Still wondering if I should get it and swap in the axles. Anybody know how to make the steering work with the yota axles and a slip-yoke elimanation?  Or just swap in a Sammie T-case? ???
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Gee, I just found a Yota for 200 bucks today in a tow yard. ;D
Still wondering if I should get it and swap in the axles. Anybody know how to make the steering work with the yota axles and a slip-yoke elimanation?  Or just swap in a Sammie T-case? ???
i know where their are plunty of those axles, why anyone want some??? ;D
stu
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i know where their are plunty of those axles, why anyone want some??? ;D
stu
Now if you were only around the corner from me ;)
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Don't bother with a slip yoke eliminator, go with a kicker3 and a sammy case, more options for gearing.
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Don't bother with a slip yoke eliminator, go with a kicker3 and a sammy case, more options for gearing.
What and where?
Okay, I;ve seen a pic of the adapter for the Sammie t-case to  Tracker Tranny. Would that be it?
Now if I can just remember where I saw that pic from?
(http://www.eye-irritant.com/august2004/kicker%203.jpg)
Mannn. I just installed that crawler gear and 2lo :-/
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It mates the modified kick t-case to the stock sammy case, Go to www.ottindustries.com/kicker3.htm and look at the whole thing.
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It mates the modified kick t-case to the stock sammy case, Go to www.ottindustries.com/kicker3.htm and look at the whole thing.
Thanks. I knew I saw it somewhere.
Now I just saved it as a Fav ;D
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There is a very high demand for toyota solid axles right now and I have seen the crunch. Sure their always around when you do not need it, but they are being sought after by other asian 4wheel enthusiasts. Especially the new toyota owners wanting them. I don't think I want to reupgrade my stuff for bigger birfs and redo absolutely everything. Keep it light simple and gear the hell out of it.
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Well, I haven't done anything yet.  Still deciding on what to do. Yota is 200 bucks.  Wasted a grand on crawler gear and ARB for Tracker :-/
Buy Kicker 3  T-case
and other stuff. ???
Maybe
maybe not.
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Well, I haven't done anything yet.  Still deciding on what to do. Yota is 200 bucks.  Wasted a grand on crawler gear and ARB for Tracker  :-/
Buy Kicker 3  T-case
and other stuff.  ???
Maybe
maybe not.
going SAS is hard enough, doing it with yota would be even harder i think. and what about the wheel base of the tracker? a kicker 3 won't fit will it?
stu
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going SAS is hard enough, doing it with yota would be even harder i think.  and what about the wheel base of the tracker?  a kicker 3 won't fit will it?
stu
Yota axles I think would be easier cause they're already the right width and youd have bigger brakes, just convert it to leaf springs. Steering would be a little problematic but its been done b-4. Using Sammie t-case would give you a high gear reduction and slip-yoke elimanation.
Wheel base might be a problem on a 2dr though :-/
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Yota axles I think would be easier cause they're already the right width and youd have bigger brakes, just convert it to leaf springs. Steering would be a little problematic but its been done b-4. Using Sammie t-case would give you a high gear reduction and slip-yoke elimanation.
Wheel base might be a problem on a 2dr though :-/
i know one guy that has done it with a 2 door. hes got my fav tracker of all time, heres his page.http://www.cs.umass.edu/~glenn/personal.html
stu
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going SAS is hard enough, doing it with yota would be even harder i think.  and what about the wheel base of the tracker?  a kicker 3 won't fit will it?
stu
The kicker3 is only a little longer than the stock kick setup. As a matter of fact the kicker3 with sammy case attached, the length of the stock case from the front mating surface of the transfer case to the rear output is 15" with the kick, and 23" with the kicker3 with sammy, but the sammy output is about4" lower than a kick. I don't see why it wouldn't work in a 2 door, it works in a sammy. Which one has a longer wheelbase, and rear driveline? Could it be the trackick? I think so...hehe! Sorry, had to.
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the trackers has a shorter rear driveshaft i think. the tracker trans and t-case are alot longer then a sammy
stu
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LOL you have your work cut out for you, i hope it works when you get to it and you post some good pics and a good parts list so i can follow you. ;) i have considered this for a future project also. but not now. if stu dont want your left over calmini parts i call 2nd ;D
i have also thought it might be fun (not practical) to put a IFS in the rear with tracker parts.... it could be done :-/
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i have also thought it might be fun (not practical) to put a IFS in the rear with tracker parts....  it could be done :-/
your not the only one that thought about it. it would take more planing and thinking then fabing, but a sammy case with its offset would work well with the tracker front end offset ;)
stu