ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Suzuki 4x4 Forum => Topic started by: Lindenmooch on March 01, 2009, 12:43:02 PM
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How hard would it be to build a long travel 4 link suspension for my Tracker? Like...trophy truck style...
I'm getting really tired of crawling around at 1/2 mph in these pennsylvania woods. I want to do 160 along a fire road. Again...just tossin this around. Trying to picture some future projects. I want really long travel, and super squishy shocks for some fast wheeling over rough terrain. How terrible is a track/kick for a baja buggy platform?
Should I just ditch it and buy a Ford F150?
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This is built on a Tracker platform. Go for it. Remember the trucks you see flying offroad are not doing it in Pennsylvania woodlands.
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For ideas, look up chaos fab, they make long travel kits. The hardest part would be triangulating the A-arms, everything else just comes down to careful measuring tape usage. :) Only problem i can think of would be the short wheelbase, it might get a little squirmy at speed. Also, you might have to come up with a knuckle and a-arm design, as i'm not sure if current trackick front suspension would hold up to well, with one a-arm.
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This is what I'm after.
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/114/366327322_ebcf902764.jpg?v=0)
I want that.
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I want to do 160 along a fire road.
I want to know how your going to get the tracker up to 160mph. ???
I hope you have a good amount a $$$ to throw at it, if you want it to look like that truck above
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Ahh yes...160 might be a bit of a problem. I'm wanting more power anyway....so an engine swap might be in future plans.
And I don't want the tracker to look exactly like that trophy truck above...I just want a similar suspension setup with really squishy shocks. How do I get the rear to just drop out of the tracker when catching some air like those trucks do?? And how do they keep the axle from falling off completely?
I've been searching, and I can't find much info about those setups.
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Allot of time and money... LOL
Is this similar to the set up you want to run?
(http://www.off-road.com/trucks4x4/data/articlestandard/chevy/262006/340532/rear_409x600.jpg)(http://www.dtprofab.com/large/R-RACER-01FULL.JPG)
Or not that extreme?
There are simpler setups too.
This site might help you set a better idea http://www.dtprofab.com/
I would try a supercharger, before swapping motors. Depending on boost and air temp you can get 75% more power
Camden use to make a supercharger for the zuks, but now your kind of on your own. Eaton makes some good superchargers and you can usually pick up used ones on e-bay for a couple hundred.
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Be prepared to spend some $$$. Shocks & springs alone will run you into the thousands if you're wanting to do what trophy trucks can do. Check out Mike Hagen's IFS rigs too - he's done some sweeeeeet stuff. My favorite is the one where he ditches the McPherson front in favor of dual A-arm fronts.... mmmm....
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You don't need to go that extreme. I know of a certain well set up kick that can fly through the bumpy's
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d35/bigzook/Daves%20House%202-07-09/Daveshouse083.jpg)
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yeah....that's what I'm talkin about. ;D
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Ahh yes...160 might be a bit of a problem. I'm wanting more power anyway....so an engine swap might be in future plans.
And I don't want the tracker to look exactly like that trophy truck above...I just want a similar suspension setup with really squishy shocks. How do I get the rear to just drop out of the tracker when catching some air like those trucks do?? And how do they keep the axle from falling off completely?
I've been searching, and I can't find much info about those setups.
Limiting straps, front and rear keep the suspension from falling down and destroying the shocks.
Amilla
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Lindenmooch,
Are you talking about making a rig that can go fast in bumps, and maybe get a little air time, or are you literally talking about wanting to keep up with trophy trucks ??? They're going to be two totally different things.
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Oh no....I definately won't keep up with trophy trucks!
I just absolutely LOVE the way they can fly through the desert flat out over anything and everything....and I just want a taste of it.
I realize the popular and most practical choice for a "budget trophy truck" would be a ford ranger or F-150....but I quite like my simple little Tracker, so if I can get some long arm suspension with long squishy shocks, and maybe a supercharger or a turbo'd 2.0....then that's what I'll do.
I don't know if any of you know this area at all....but Pennsylvania is FULL of rocks. But not the kind for real tough rock crawlers...just small, uber annoying rocks. I hate wheeling at 1/2 mph alllll the time. And if I put my foot down...I'll just rattle the tracker to pieces going over all the rocks and bumps.
If it's going to be a complete custom fab job...I'll just sell the Tracker to one of you guys and buy a Ford pickup.
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The twin I-beam suspension the Fords have are pretty sweet. I believe they also had it in some of the Bronco II models if you're into the mini SUV thing (which, I presume you are if you own a tracker). If I were you, I'd look long and hard at both options (Ford & Suzuki), and think long and hard about what you really want the vehicle to do, and your budget before dropping the $$$. Jeep Cherokee's are a pretty cheap option these days too, but I think they're uni-body.
I wouldn't do the 2.0L AND a turbo. It'd be much cheaper & easier to do a Suzuki V6 swap if the 2.0L isn't enough for you (which - it SHOULD be). I know 130 HP doesn't seem like much, but it's ~30% more power than the 1.6L 16v and ~60% more power than the 1.6L 8v.
Track width is a large consideration in stability |removethispart|@ higher speeds. The 2-door is going to be at a disadvantage here. But, it will have a significant weight advantage (easier for suspension, HP & breaking). So - pick your poison: extra weight & stability, or less weight, and less stability?
You can probably drop $700 into OME springs, shocks & struts and be happy (just have realistic expectations: dessert runners spend $700 on ONE shock). I drive my 4-door 5-speed on dunes & fire roads between 40-60MPH depending on "track conditions". My OME suspension & 29" tires eat up all but the nastiest rocks & pot holes (which are usually easy enough to avoid). I've also jumped my junk in the sand dunes (read: softer landing), and been very happy with the landings.
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Awesome.
Here's another monkey wrench to toss into it. What about 4wd?? Am I wrong to assume it would be much simpler and easier to lift the front of a 2wd truck?
The reason I keep mentioning Ford trucks...is because they are already so popular among the trophy and baja trucks, that there are probably a ton of long arm suspension kits readily available.
I'm thinking along the lines of a late 90's F-150. 2 wheel drive. Extended cab. V8. Unsure about tranny...I love manuals.
Or. Do I need 4wd? How hard would it be to lift the front of the tracker a few more inches? Should I buy the Calmini control arms? Could I get a diff spacer and swap out my coils and shocks for coilovers? Can I eliminate the rear diff mount on the body, and just use limiting straps?
And about the engine. What kind of power could I steal out of my 1.6? What about an overbore and flat top pistons? New cam? Can I upgrade from 8 to 16 valves?
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For MILD lifts (to 31" tires), there's no difference between lifting a 4wd or 2wd, since you're talking about spring, strut & shock changes only. Keep considering the Ford, they're a good option for desert running. Just keep in mind I'll still be out wheeling my kick when you're heading back to a gas station :P Really though, the Ford has it's advantages, and the Suzuki has it's. Just figure out which fits your needs better.
I prefer auto for rocks, and manual for the faster stuff. Manual has the added benefit of being able to be bump started should your battery drain down, or the starter fail.
You can get away with 2wd, but you'll want a locker of some kind. A 2wd locked is approximately capable as a 4wd with open diffs for the kind of wheeling you're talking about. You'll also be better balanced during jumps (less weight up front). That reminds me - consider re-locating your battery into the cab, or out back somewhere. 25 lbs out of the engine compartment, and back somewhere (and probably lower) makes a significant difference.
If you can afford coil overs, go for it. But, I'd get the OME kit. Unless you're considering an axle swap - it's by far going to be the best suspension you can get your hands on for what you're doing. At $700 for the full lift kit - it's VERY reasonably priced. Go with 29-31" tires (I'd lean towards 29" as there's no diff gearing options for kicks). If the tires rub, bust out your favorite cutting tool, pliers & a hammer. In high-speed off road, you want to avoid lift like the plague. Fender trimming is your friend. Calmini doesn't sell their A-arms seperately. Do the Hagen Widening mod, and you won't need them: http://www.zukiworld.com/month_120102/feature_hagan_frontendmod.htm (http://www.zukiworld.com/month_120102/feature_hagan_frontendmod.htm). You'll also only need one trail spare CV (if you do 4wd), the tires will center better (less lift needed), it'll widen the stance (remember stability?) and it'll soften the suspension. Among cheap desert runner mods, this one is king. Consider some good bump stops & drop limit straps to keep your struts & shocks alive.
And get a roll bar. It's only a matter of time before you end up on your lid.
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The above recommendations are all based on a limited budget, tools & fab experience. If you're less limited... there's other directions you can go:
http://www.zukiworld.com/month_050106/feature_hagen-newfrontend.htm (http://www.zukiworld.com/month_050106/feature_hagen-newfrontend.htm)
http://www.izook.com/features/kickin/kickin.htm (http://www.izook.com/features/kickin/kickin.htm)
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I did some poking around and found this.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Cars-Trucks___1998-FORD-RANGER-EXTRA-CAB-PRE-RUNNER-NO-RESERVE_W0QQitemZ250380099377QQddnZCarsQ20Q26Q20TrucksQQddiZ2282QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_Cars_Trucks?hash=item250380099377&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=65%3A-1|39%3A1|240%3A1318 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Cars-Trucks___1998-FORD-RANGER-EXTRA-CAB-PRE-RUNNER-NO-RESERVE_W0QQitemZ250380099377QQddnZCarsQ20Q26Q20TrucksQQddiZ2282QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_Cars_Trucks?hash=item250380099377&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=65%3A-1|39%3A1|240%3A1318)
Probably a pretty good place to start. If I didn't just buy a pontiac trans am....I'd go down to Cali right now and buy that.
Again...thanks for all the info!
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Doin some thinking....and since I already have a nice capable 4wd rig...I might hang onto it, instead of buying something else to wheel with. So I still have to find some creative ways to get a few more inches of ride height, so I can stuff some tall coils with a low spring rate under it, and some OME shocks/struts.
I've seen a couple brackets for the front diff...to lower it a considerable amount. Is there a company that makes them? Or do you guys fab your own? I already know where to get a spacer for the rear diff...if I don't buy a whole new Y-link.
So..my question...where can I buy a bracket/spacer for the front diff?? ;D
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Or... you could just buy the OME lift kit and be done with it:
http://www.lowrangeoffroad.com/kicksuspension.htm (http://www.lowrangeoffroad.com/kicksuspension.htm)
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My old VW baja bug was rough on a wash board road at slow speeds but take it up to 45-50 mph on the same road and it was extremely smooth and a blast to drive.
Very simple vehicle all around and now there are literally dozens of engine options from mild to extremely wild.
Its not 4 wheel drive but then you dont really need 4x4 at high speeds.
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Or... you could just buy the OME lift kit and be done with it:
[url]http://www.lowrangeoffroad.com/kicksuspension.htm[/url] ([url]http://www.lowrangeoffroad.com/kicksuspension.htm[/url])
Ahem....*ninja edit?* thanks for link!
I was thinking along the lines of this....a bracket to lower the control arms and front diff..to make room for taller coil springs.
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y49/realredwagon/DSCN0716.jpg)
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Supposedly a vendor's working rock 4x fabrication is working on it. I wouldn't hold your breath. There's a rare few lifts that were out for a few years that did that (sky jacker, or pro comp?). I don't see why you couldn't home-brew something like that. Doesn't look hard to make.
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Maybe...I'll have a look at it this summer....but I'm a little intimidated by fabbing my own lift.
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You can convert to long arms easily by cutting off the stock frame mounts and move them up to the next crossmember, insert a slug inside the tubing for alignment and strength, then weld. Then cut the control arms in half and extend with tubing.
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Might be easier to just make your own lower control arms out of round tube at that point ??? If I remember, the A-arms are kind of odd-shaped. I'm a total noob at metal fab though, and could be talking out of my donkey.
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If you're adventurous you could just do the stuff you want to do in your stock truck and replace/upgrade things as they break...
A buddy of mine did that with his toyota pickup, and found all he really needed was good tires, a locker better springs/shocks and a brace here and there. You might be surprised at what you can do stock. He rips that truck hard, very hard. And the fact its close to stock has been its saving grace.
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Perhaps....but it's way too stiff. I need to soften up the ride at least...Gonna look into some coil spring options this summer.
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http://f-o-a.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=16_23&products_id=11
Possibility to get a custom spring with the softness you need
I think OME are tried and true to be the best ride though
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Wow...looks like an awesome site. Very customizable...lots of options there. And yes...I heard OME is very good stuff. Just keeping my options open. Thanks 'rjkick'.
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Might be easier to just make your own lower control arms out of round tube at that point ??? If I remember, the A-arms are kind of odd-shaped. I'm a total noob at metal fab though, and could be talking out of my donkey.
I was referring to the rear, not the front. Long arms in the rear ;)
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Oh.... :-[
Has anyone sleeved the control arms before ??? I'm wanting to stretch the wheel base (I'll figure something out with the gas tank), and was wondering if I could cheap out by sleeving what's there.
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Oh.... :-[
Has anyone sleeved the control arms before ??? I'm wanting to stretch the wheel base (I'll figure something out with the gas tank), and was wondering if I could cheap out by sleeving what's there.
You could, if you are going to do that though you will want to have your new sleeve go all the way to the mounts on both ends. Instead I would pick up a Johnny Joint and build a new link using one of your original end on one side and a bung in the other going to the JJ.
I believe someone on the board went through and updated their links with JJ, someone might link to it.
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*crosses fingers*
JJ's are kind of expensive & big (heavy) compared to heims aren't they? I was hoping to cheap out for now, and come back with other (less binding) joints down the road when I've got the $$$.
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They aren't that much heavier. The main problem with Heims is wear over time and the fact that they get chatty once they do. The JJ is basically a poly bushing around a Heim joint, so it is a little bit softer and it's not as noisy (not metal on metal).
If your just looking for longer joints, you can just stick with rubber on both ends. But you won't gain much flex. You can also just weld large bolts onto the back side of one end and put a bung on some tube, you will gain some flex at lower speeds as the tube will be able to rotate. Then you just have to worry about your weld shearing off. :) There is an older post on a Tracker that did this, looked great and supposedly worked great as well.
A fully forged JJ with 3/4" thread is only $40, http://www.currieenterprises.com/cestore/Product.aspx?id=1262 and a good set of heims are going to cost you around 20-30 per joint so your not saving a lot. If you want to re-do your rear suspension expect to spend at least 300 in tubing, joints and bungs. If your looking to build a full long arm kit, especially for a DD, I would plan on spending the money up front for solid hardware no matter what links you decide to use.
Or you can just go with the middle paragraph and run it until it breaks. :D
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I still can't find anything about lowering the front differential. What kind of work is involved with that? What problems would I create by lowering the front diff? How hard is it to do? Assuming I can get a bracket custom made from angle iron or steel. Do I have to do anything special with the front driveshaft if I only lower it a few inches?
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Oh.... :-[
Has anyone sleeved the control arms before ??? I'm wanting to stretch the wheel base (I'll figure something out with the gas tank), and was wondering if I could cheap out by sleeving what's there.
I did some frame mods and with a Calimini 3" lift, lanthened the rear arms 12" and moved the pivot forward so that the axil stayed in the same spot. That was about 6 years ago. I've driven on sand, mud, trail... Done it all and havent had any problems.
Good luck
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I still can't find anything about lowering the front differential. What kind of work is involved with that? What problems would I create by lowering the front diff? How hard is it to do? Assuming I can get a bracket custom made from angle iron or steel. Do I have to do anything special with the front driveshaft if I only lower it a few inches?
http://www.zukiworld.com/forum/index.php?topic=22395.msg190043#msg190043
Send BRD HNTR a PM, I know he ended up modifying one of the drop brackets later.
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I still can't find anything about lowering the front differential. What kind of work is involved with that? What problems would I create by lowering the front diff? How hard is it to do? Assuming I can get a bracket custom made from angle iron or steel. Do I have to do anything special with the front driveshaft if I only lower it a few inches?
Lowering the drivers side is just a matter of lengthening the mounting arm how much you want to drop. (More than 1 1/2" means rotating the diff up in the back, or dropping the cross member.) The passenger side is more complex because it hangs at an angle, and just lengthening it moves it over as well as down. Take an angle guage and slide under your rig and get the angle it hangs (or use paper and approximate the angle). draw it on paper and mark the position it is in, and also where you want it (strainght down how much you want it to drop). Make sure the two of the three bolt holes are lined up and down. Now you have a template of how it should look. (When you lengthen it you will also rotate the end slightly because the angle will decrease as you drop it.)
I haven't had any drive shaft issues since changing mine.
Usually lowering the diff is not required until pushing 3" or more lift. There are lots of wheelers with 3" lifts who have never had CV issues.
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Doesn't the Calmini drop just tilt the front down while keeping the rear mount the same? That would change driveline angels I think... but is it enough the cause vibration...?
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The high end Calmini kit would be more than a grand with shipping....and it's only a 3" lift. That's quite expensive. That's at least 300 dollars for an inch, if you compare it to the OME kit for 700, which is a 2" lift I think.
*EDIT* - I just looked at Calmini's 3" kit....and I may not have been very fair in that comparison. They do offer quite a lot more hardware in their kit. So it may "only" be an extra inch above what OME can offer for $700....you get a lot more travel and articulation...supposedly.....for $950.
I don't know.....I don't really need to make up my mind right now....because I can't afford either one anyway. :-\
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Doesn't the Calmini drop just tilt the front down while keeping the rear mount the same? That would change driveline angels I think... but is it enough the cause vibration...?
Yes, the Calmini angles the front diff, this allows them to avoid cutting up the cross member. It shouldn't cause any additional vibrations in the front end though.
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Doing that...will prevent any CV joint failure....right? ??? I can only assume that's why they've done that in the first place.....
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The drop is to reduce the angle of the CV joins due to the lift. If you take a look at the drop done by BRD HNTR earlier in the thread he shows a before and after shot of the angles of his CV's.