ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Suzuki 4x4 Forum => Topic started by: phloop on December 02, 2007, 10:39:23 PM
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I thought with the BS and commotion on the 96 kick plug/plug wire thread I would bring this over here.
We all have our opinions but they have nothing to do with the thread that was first started about plugs and plug wires.
And has Riddick recieved any kind of an answer to his question? Other than us BSing each other?
Now, could some one please tell me how these wires work. I know how a cap works and how the ignition system works. I would like too see something on how the two work together.
I am open minded on this as I have no plans on buying either of the two.
I just want too know how the wires do their magic ???
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Moved to here
Having read through the patent application I'll try and answer some of these.
OK Phloop, The spark plug wire is connected to the distributor cap where it gets its charge from the coil. The voltage goes into the capacitor where it builds until it is released to the plug in a single short burst. The reason for the ground wire is because that is how capacitors work. In order to drain them, in this case across the spark plug gap you need a closed circuit thus the ground wire from the negative side of the capacitor.
A capacitor is two metal 'plates' with an insulating material (dialectric) between them. In this case the 'capacitor' appears to be formed by wrapping a metal shield around the wire. The wire core is one plate, the silicon insulation is the dielectric and the metal shield is the other plate. By varying the length of the metal shield the capacitance can be changed. The 'capacitor' is effectively connected between a point somewhere along the length of the wire and ground. If you're familiar with points ignition then you'll know about condensors - a condensor is a capacitor, one end to coil, other to ground. Like Sidekicksrock says, an electrical component needs at least two wires (+/-)
1st as the coil voltage is building in the capacitor what is actually increasing? The capacitor will continue to store voltage until it is equalized with the voltage source in this case the coil so 30-40,000 volts. But would the amperage increase over a stock induction ignition?
The capacitor is similar to a very small battery. What is increasing in the capacitor is the charge. Like I said before the max. voltage across the plug is defined by a number of parameters, on a Zuk its probably no more than 20KV max, maybe 8KV no load. The coil does not determine the voltage. a 60kV coil can produce a 30kV more than a 30KV coil but with no other changes the max. voltage across the plug will still be around 20kV. The additional current provided is tricky to calculate, you would need to know the effective resistance of the spark plug itself.
The charge available is easy Q=CV where C = capacitance and V = Voltage. Some fairly rough calculations:
Q = 75pF * 20K = 1.5uC
now 1 Amp is 1 C/s so if the discharge time was 1 second then there would be a current of 1.5 millionths of an amp.
Over the stated 400nS then the current is 3.75A average (see below).
Here is another issue, the discharge time will be fixed by the Capacitance and the effective resistance of the lead AND plug. What is the effective resistance of the plug? I don't know but if theres 20KV across it then it must be reasonably high V=IR, if R was zero then so would V
2nd what would be used to trigger the discharge? Would the increased plug gap be enough to delay the spark and allow the capacitor to charge or would there need to be a resistor or some other trigger in line which would open once a certain voltage is reached?
The capacitor will begin to discharge when any point in the circuit has a lower voltage. In this case the voltage across the plug will fall when the spark is formed. Now because of the resitances in the leads the voltage at the coil is slightly higher than the voltage at the capacitor and the voltage at the capacitor is considerably higher than the voltage on the plug, so the current will flow towards the plug.
There are a number of points in their literature that don't seem to be quite right. Even if they do (and I have a lot of doubts) then there is still the issue of whether there really are any gains to be had from a single high energy very short duration spark in an automotive engine. All the research available seems to indicate that a longer spark duration is preferable.
Its also worth noting that a spark with half the energy over twice the time has the same power because the overall power is the integral of the function.
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Good explanation.From my personal experience,the Nology wires make a difference at high rpm's when each combustion cycle is of a much shorter duration than it would be at lower rpm's.The wires also have an excellent lifespan.
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Rhinoman, Thank you very much That was very helpful.
Tell me if I have this right; a high performance coil will not by itself increase the voltage across the plug because once the spark is formed the rest of the voltage continues at the same or lower voltage until it is spent. So the only reason to have a high energy coil would be if you have high cylinder pressures or some other factor which would require voltage higher than a stock coil can generate to create a spark. In theory then what Nology is doing with these wires is creating an artificial need for a higher coil voltage by increasing the plug gap. Then by using a capacitor the coil voltage is stored until it is high enough to discharge across the plug. This creates a hotter more intense spark but for a shorter duration.
These wires would work best in high compression race engines. The specs on the Nology website show that most of the gains are at high RPM's 7,000+ where a induction ignition would have problems creating a spark powerful enough, and quick enough. If what they claim is true that at 7,000 RPM a standard spark discharge would last for 180 degrees then using a capacitor to shorten and intensify the discharge makes a lot of sense.
Gains at low to mid range would come because of the more intense spark across a larger plug gap.
I have no doubt that this technology is useful for high RPM performance engines. Nology has been selling these wires since 1991 and they have/are being used by some of the most famous race teams out there. Including Big Daddy Don Garlits, a personal hero of mine from a long time ago. Some of the testimonials on the race team page even list the dyno results on tests they did. Whether or not the performance results we can get on our little engines which are primarily operated under 5,000 rpm are worth the expense is a personal decision.
Given what I have learned about this technology over the last couple of days it would seem that these wires could be used with a multi-spark MSD or Jacobs ignition. If this is true then each spark would be maximised across a larger spark gap. Duration with a more powerful spark, interesting.
OK now wait a minute, if the duration of the spark is determined by the length of time the rotor and the contact in the distributor cap are in contact (only a few degrees) Then how would a spark duration continue for 180 degrees at high RPM's? Resistance?
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How about recommending a good set of wires .This is what I can find at my parts store Bluestreak,Beldon,Prestolite,Champion all ranging from $35-$85 I'm trying not to spend $180 at the dealer .Can't find any NGK,Bosch,Denso wires anywhere.
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I know that Hawk stocks the NGK wires.
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How about recommending a good set of wires .This is what I can find at my parts store Bluestreak,Beldon,Prestolite,Champion all ranging from $35-$85 I'm trying not to spend $180 at the dealer .Can't find any NGK,Bosch,Denso wires anywhere.
Not sure if you can get them where you are but try Beck/Arnley. The 16v PN is 175-6081 for the premium wire set. My cost was $35 list is more, not sure how much as the paper work is not in front of me.
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A capacitor is two metal 'plates' with an insulating material (dialectric) between them. In this case the 'capacitor' appears to be formed by wrapping a metal shield around the wire. The wire core is one plate, the silicon insulation is the dielectric and the metal shield is the other plate. By varying the length of the metal shield the capacitance can be changed. The 'capacitor' is effectively connected between a point somewhere along the length of the wire and ground. If you're familiar with points ignition then you'll know about condensors - a condensor is a capacitor, one end to coil, other to ground. Like Sidekicksrock says, an electrical component needs at least two wires (+/-)
OK this is getting better. As you/Sidekicksrock have posted, an electrical component needs at least two wires (+/-). The one thing I did not see on the site was how the wires are charged as I did not see or read about any positive wire only the ground wire. And the coil will not charge the cap with no connection. I am sure that these wires will work in the proper application but when you check them out you are left with more than a few questions. Maybe I am just asking the wrong question. ???
Can some one tell me how these wires are installed? What is all involved in the install?
And I know how a cap works. And I also know how a condenser work's as we used to have a little fun with them in high school. We would charge them with the arc welder and either sneek up behind some one and zap them or holler at the guy to get his attention and toss the charged condensor to him. Then when he caught the condensor he would ground it out and get zapped. :laugh:
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The wires go in just like stock wires do except for each has a ground wire. These ground wires are on each plug wire & need only to be fixed to a ground on the motor. Valve cover hold down bolts are common to use. I have a 1600cc 16v motor. I have replaced the valve cover off a Suzuki 16v car to get a few gains. 1st. the car has a threaded 6mm hole next to each spark plug ( car uses coil towers not plug wires) this is perfect for the ground wires. 2nd & a even better reason to use the car valve cover it now the oil filler is in front. If your X90 or Sidekick is lifted, you know what im talking about!
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OK this is getting better. As you/Sidekicksrock have posted, an electrical component needs at least two wires (+/-). The one thing I did not see on the site was how the wires are charged as I did not see or read about any positive wire only the ground wire. And the coil will not charge the cap with no connection. I am sure that these wires will work in the proper application but when you check them out you are left with more than a few questions. Maybe I am just asking the wrong question. ??
There isn't a seperate capacitor that is connected to the wire. The wire core, the insulation and the metal shield ARE the capacitor. The wire is the positive plate, getting its charge from the coil. The negative plate is the shield which is connected to the ground strap.
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OK now wait a minute, if the duration of the spark is determined by the length of time the rotor and the contact in the distributor cap are in contact (only a few degrees) Then how would a spark duration continue for 180 degrees at high RPM's? Resistance?
It can't, not in a distributor type system. The biggest spark is required at peak torque (not max. rpm) when the combustion pressure is highest and the voltage requirement is at a maximum.
It doesn't really matter how long the spark duration is, the important thing is that it is sufficiently long enough to create a good burn. Remember the ignition advance curve too, the spark is not fired at TDC, but at some point earlier to set up the burn.
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To quote Kid Rock in the movie (Joe Dirt) "How does a Pontiac Positraction work?... It just does!" Ok had to add that. Here is a poss. answer. I will try & post a picture I took today of the Nology demo in action. Looks like a high output coil works at the plug.
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I think they use the same technology as the K&N sticker does :laugh:
Kevin
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nice spark in "free air" ... but reality isn't "free air" inside an engine.
makes good demo tho :P
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nice spark in "free air" ... but reality isn't "free air" inside an engine.
makes good demo tho :P
That is the whole idea behind these wires, The capacitor stores the coil charge until it is strong enough to jump the widened gap of the spark plug. It is true the higher the compression the harder it is for a spark to form but we are not even running 10-1 in our lil engines so it doesn't really matter.
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I have been doing some research over the last couple of days. and while I am convinced that this wire/capacitor technology has merit I don't think it is the best way to go. CDI produces a spark which contains more energy but for a shorter duration. A IDI (Inductive Discharge ignition) (standard ignition) produces a weaker spark but for a longer duration. A multi spark CDI produces multiple high energy pulses for the same duration as the IDI does. This I believe is the best solution for low rpm heavy demand situations such as we experience off road. I have used the Jacobs Omni Pack in lil Suzy for 10 years now and it has not failed. I also have the secondary trigger so if the Jacobs system ever fails I just need to plug the coil wire back into the stock coil and drive home. The secondary trigger is just a converter which changes a coil burst to a points style pulse to trigger a second ignition system. It is fully compatible with the off road multi-spark ignitions made by Jacobs and MSD and as i said can be bypassed if they fail. Of course if the OEM ignition fails be sure to know how to hook up the aftermarket ignition direct.
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I have been doing some research over the last couple of days. and while I am convinced that this wire/capacitor technology has merit I don't think it is the best way to go.
I think it may be PERFECT when you're running at 5k plus RPMS.
Does it "hurt" at lower RPMS? Dunno, probably not, but my question has always been, does it help?
So, sure "big daddy" loves them when he's screaming at a drag launch. That helps me how?
So, this thread is "hype or real?" ... they are not the "hype" of say "fuel line magnets", but still the question of are the "real" remains.
I *have* looked at their website, and read _some_ of the endorcements ... but where's a dyno pull of a before/after? I don't want some dragster charts ... show me a stock 4 banger vs that same engine with nology wires (and with a necessary retune) ... is it really THAT hard?
I would think that nology *should* do this, but because they haven't, I have to *cough*.
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There isn't a seperate capacitor that is connected to the wire. The wire core, the insulation and the metal shield ARE the capacitor. The wire is the positive plate, getting its charge from the coil. The negative plate is the shield which is connected to the ground strap.
Rhinoman, thank you. Ever since I got envolved in this thread all I was looking for was how the wires worked. After the many post of go check out the web site (which did not have this simple info), you have posted a quick easily understood explanation. Or at least posted it a way that I understand. :laugh:
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Does it "hurt" at lower RPMS? Dunno, probably not, but my question has always been, does it help?
At above 3,000 RPM there is not time for a CD ignition to create multible sparks. So at 3,000 or above these wires work like an expensive CD ignition whether or not one is better than the other I don't kinow. I think it is safe to say that you are going to get at least most of any gains you see above 3,000 RPM
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Don't qoute "me" on this but isn't MSD short for Multiple Spark Discharge? ???
Doesn't that mean the ignition system will fire MORE than once during the firing cycle? ??? ??? :o
All "I" am going to say. ;) :laugh:
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Don't qoute "me" on this but isn't MSD short for Multiple Spark Discharge? ???
Doesn't that mean the ignition system will fire MORE than once during the firing cycle? ??? ??? :o
All "I" am going to say. ;) :laugh:
Yes and Multiple Spark Discharge ignitions fire the ignition multiple times during the combustion cycle right up until about 3,000 rpm when the cycle becomes so fast that there is not time for multiple discharges. At which point the ignition only fires once per combustion cycle. Please don't ask (how do it know?) The ignition doesn't change the length of time changes.
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Please don't ask (how do it know?)
RPM is calculated by measuring the time interval between input triggers (f=1/t). Its a pretty important measurement because ignition advance is calculated from a look up table of rpm v manifold pressure.
Multiple Spark Systems are CDI - it takes too long to charge/discharge a coil to make a multiple spark Inductive system. A multiple spark CDI is needed to get the higher power of a CDI spark with the long (effective) duration of an inductive system. Of course you could just uprate a stock system with a high power coil and open up the plug gap.
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RPM is calculated by measuring the time interval between input triggers (f=1/t). Its a pretty important measurement because ignition advance is calculated from a look up table of rpm v manifold pressure.
You got a little ahead of me on this one? Are we talking about a pressurized intake manifold or exhaust manifold?
OK never mind I got it...
Since measuring the pressure inside the actual cylinder would be highly impractical, engine management systems use the intake manifold pressure. Newer vehicles have what is known as a Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) gauge or sensor. The absolute pressure measurement has the normal atmospheric pressure (14.7 psi or 1 bar) factored out of it, so a full vacuum would read zero and normal, sea-level atmospheric pressure would read 14.7 psi on an absolute pressure gauge. In the engineering world, this differs from gauge pressure which really measures the difference between atmospheric pressure and the thing that one is measuring. For example, your fuel pressure would be read in gauge pressure, and the units would technically be "psig" as opposed to "psia." If the fuel pressure was 30 psi (psig), it would actually be 30 psi over atmospheric pressure. An absolute pressure measurement is used instead of gauge pressure so that the vehicle's management system may include the surrounding barometric pressure and know what the "real" pressure inside the manifold is.
Of course you could just uprate a stock system with a high power coil and open up the plug gap.
This is an alternative granted, however as I understand it the reason for the CDI is because it generates pulses almost equal to the first spark. In an induction ignition the energy falls off after the spark is formed. I do agree that this setup will enhance the performance of the engine. How it would compare with a CDI I don't know
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I should never have read the first post when it was in the other topic. This weekend my #3 wire crapped out while driving, and basically completely stopped providing spark to the plug.
Went to the store, bought the $30 borg warner wires, and it's working fine again.
It's a good thing i wasn't planning on buying the nology wires, because I would have just wasted $30 on these...
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;)