ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Suzuki 4x4 Forum => Topic started by: daddyizzle on September 18, 2007, 06:34:41 PM
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I was thinking about fuel injection but since I work alot of hours I thought maybe the Keihin 44 or 40 from petroworks might be an option. It boasts up to a 20 h.p gain and cleans up the engine compartment. ;D A little pricey but not too bad.
Petroworks has nothing but good things to say about it (of course ::)) but I was wondering if anybody here actually is running it, and if it came pre-adjusted. Did it bolt right on? What's the mileage? How about the performance? Cold weather starts? ???
-Adam
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Not from this board but should help
http://www.izook.com/tech/samurai/engine/pwcvcarb/pwcvcarb.htm
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I've been wondering the same thing!!! I'm ready to buy one but I would like someones input on the product other than the creators. I run a 32/36 weber now and it has issues!!! But it is an old carb with a gasket rebuild. so I might just need more parts or a new one. I just keep tinkering!
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I-Zook:
First impressions:I found that it had a very strong low to mid range. Top end did not show anything faster than stock, but getting there was pure enjoyment! The throttle response is something that you have to get used to. It is veeery responsive! Don't stomp the pedal unless you are already ready to shift. This kit will teach you how to drive again. {grin}
Petroworks:
Dyno tests showed that we had a 20+hp gain over a stock carburetor, and a 10hp gain over a well setup Weber carburetor. Throttle response is instant, and power is felt throughout the power band. On road we had a stock car doing well over 80mph on the freeway up an incline. Off-road it is a dream, you can idle along at 900rpm and have plenty of on demand power to get over/up or through any obstacle. We found our gas mileage ranged from 29 to 35mpg with normal freeway speeds, and around town stop and go trips.
Some similarities in both statements and some conflict. Hopefully we'll find somebody actually running one that can give their opinion. If it can get up to 80 pretty easily and hold it on an incline, heck that's good enough for me. ;D ;D
I may have to call Petroworks and pick their brains. >:D >:D
-Adam
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I spoke to Robert at Petroworks. I think I want one.
This is my understanding of what I was told. Granted I've been up all night since 7 p.m and it's now 12:30 p.m. so I'll put it here so I can reference it in case I wake up and think it was a dream.
They discontinued the 40 rebuild and only carry the 44 new. The tests were done on the 40. He says the perfomance is better with the 44 in that you still keep your power at the higher r.p.m.s
You lose some mileage if you romp on it but you do o.k. if you go easy. Powers there when you need it. He also said that I may just want to try this carb setup on my stocker without changing exhaust. He thinks I may like it well enough to not bother with a bigger exhaust or header etc. It's worth a shot.
I've already started saving ;) ;) 8) 8) Look out! :o :o
-Adam
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These look way cool. http://www.samuraiguy.com/ (http://www.samuraiguy.com/)
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I had seen these to!!! Any body running this setup!!!! ???
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These look way cool. [url]http://www.samuraiguy.com/[/url] ([url]http://www.samuraiguy.com/[/url])
I wonder what that copperhead gasket is. Sounds like a long lasting head gasket. ??? ??? ???
I wonder what the deal is with the power glide adapter. I can make my sammy an auto with a power glide transmission? ??? ??? ???
As far as the mikuni sidedrafts, I have heard about them. My reservation is with the dual setup having to be synchronized. + you end up using 2 used carbs I think where as the Petro kit comes with a new harley 44 carb. They stopped rebuilding the 40s because they couldn't meet the demand so they started going strictly 44's. $629 (I believe) so it's a little bit expensive. No one around where I live wants to work on a weber or a suzuki. But maybe if I needed carb work with the petro kit, I could go to the harley dealer. I'm sure they would like that 8) 8)
If anybody ends up calling petroworks, make sure you talk to Robert and tell him you were reading about it in this forum. Tell him some guy named Adam had already talked to him and was talking about it in this forum. Maybe they''ll give us a price break. ;D ;D
I may just buy one to be the first one here to try it and post it. $200.00 save up so far. :o :o ;) ;)
-Adam
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I have a Side Draft on my SJ-410. Bit different engine, but I have never had it stall out on a hill because of fuel issues. :)
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In the UK the SU carb is used a lot. This is also a sidedraught vacuum type carb, a 44mm carb is the one that is used. It does give a good power increase over the stock item which is roughly equivalent to 40mm. That would seem to confirm what Petroworks are saying.
The 4 carb Mikuni set up looks pretty cool but I would have thought that the carbs were a bit on the large side for offroading, GSXRs use 38 or 40mm carbs IIRC. Synchronising the carbs isn't too difficult with a set of vacuum gauges but sealing them for a snorkel would take some work.
The Copperhead gasket looks exactly that, a copper head gasket. I've not seen one of those used on a modern vehicle, they were used on older vehicles and on some high performance engines. They need to be used with some sort of sealant to keep the oil and water where its supposed to be.
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I'm saving up and I think I'll try one of those carbs. If it works good, I'll sell of my stocker to some one in a smog control area since it has all the hoses and stuff. Might just need to be tweaked a little to meet emission standards.
If anybody goes to those other boards that I find hard to navigate and finds some more info on this carb setup, throw a link into this thread please.
Now for the copperhead gasket. Is there some kind of advantage to using one like never having your head gasket wear out?. I'm guessing they cost a bit so there must be something that the manufacturer thinks is special about them---or----there's a hell of a lot of copper in them :o :o and with copper prices being high, well, maybe that's why. ::) ::)
-Adam
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I found a link on related to this swap so I will try to post it here. Sounds like there are cheaper alternatives as always but maybe less headache with the petroworks kit which I will definitely take into consideration. I just want something I can bolt on and go without having to screw around with jetting and other alterations.
$250.00 saved up so far, I can almost taste it. :P :P
Here-s the link.
http://bbs.zuwharrie.com/content/topic,65932.0.html (http://bbs.zuwharrie.com/content/topic,65932.0.html)
-Adam
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This Carb setup was unveiled at Moab this past april. It's a pretty clean set up and I know Gary has alot of time and money perfecting to run just right. It's slick. I don't have a sammi so I don't have any personal experience but I do know Gary at petroworks and he is pretty clever guy that only puts out tried and true products.
Thanks for the samuraiguy link.. I have never heard of them.. I will have to see what there all about!
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I would be really leary of using a copper gasket on an Aluminum engine, particularly in the presence of coolant. Copper and Aluminum produce a small electric current when they are touching and in the presence of watter. This small electric current accelerates a chemical reaction between the two and the result is massive corrosion. I've seen this happen with aluminum CPU waterblocks that have a copper "cold plate" that touches the CPU. Generally, the seam where the copper and aluminum touch will corrode all the way around and the seal will fail.
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I would be really leary of using a copper gasket on an Aluminum engine, particularly in the presence of coolant. Copper and Aluminum produce a small electric current when they are touching and in the presence of watter. This small electric current accelerates a chemical reaction between the two and the result is massive corrosion. I've seen this happen with aluminum CPU waterblocks that have a copper "cold plate" that touches the CPU. Generally, the seam where the copper and aluminum touch will corrode all the way around and the seal will fail.
Good point. Just like the aluminum wiring in houses back in the early 70's. Aluminum and copper expand at different rates so the aluminum wiring would come lose at the connector and cause a spark and fire. Corrosion too because of a chemical reaction. Something like that anyways. Maybe the copper head gasket is just a name and not really copper. Maybe it's a good gasket on an iron block and not on an aluminum block.
Back to the Keihin carb. I read the Zuwharri posts about it and found some interesting stuff there.
$350.00 saved and counting. 8) 8) :D
-Adam
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The main reason I know to run a copper head gasket is it won't blow out. Since it is a slightly softer metal you can crank it down and expect it to fill in the imperfections between the head and block by itself. Throw some sealer on there like Rhinoman said and your perfect for your one off special down at the dirt track. So when you have that 14:1 compression or something insane you don't have to worry about your head gasket blowing up. :)
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No chemical reaction between the aluminum and the copper? Maybe it's encapsulated. As far as filling in imperfections, sounds like if you were changing your head gasket and didn't want to run it to the shop for a resurfacing this might be the answer.
-Adam
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Well, I haven't heard of anyone doing this in a long time. It's one of those "We used to do this on the race car" sort of things. That was the one using parts from 4 different GM blocks and home made 2" headers into a 4" collector made out of an old drive line from a truck... Some people did things differently back in the day. Probably why Dad was cool with chopping chunks of my front fenders off on a whim...
There is a company that makes graphite composite gaskets for engines that help get rid of some of the imperfections from warping over time. I heard about them for exhaust gaskets for old Internationals. If you want a fancy head gasket they might have one available. Would have to look through the magazines to find the place to order them though.
http://www.aa1car.com/library/2004/eb80440.htm has some fun information on modern gasket technology.
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I checked my stash and I have just enough for the carb + shipping so I ordered mine today. 8) 8)
I asked some more questions first (of course). Robert assured me that I would have no problems with cold weather starts with the manual choke. The only thing I might need is a new thermostat if mine is bad. Everything else is included. ;D
He said that they were getting more power out of a stock 1.3 with this carb than a stock 1.6 8 valve fuel injected. That's with the stock exhaust. I guess I'll see. He also said there are people taking off the fuel injection and putting this on for more power. I was thinking of doing fuel injection but the cost + the time to hook it all up, I just couldn't see it. This will fit my schedule better.
$649.00 including shipping but I will have to send an extra $75 for core and I'll get that back when I send my stock intake back (at my expense). A little pricey but since I get an extra 20 to 30 hours a week overtime, I think I deserve to splurge. I had an intake to send but when I went to take the water neck off, I noticed someone had stuck a skinny bolt thru one of the ears on the manifold and backed it with a small nut. :o Then jammed a bunch of permatex copper around it so it was hard to see just what they did. ??? ??? Oh well.
I'll wait in eager anticipation :P :P
-Adam
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I would send him both manifolds, maybe he will give you something for the bad one.
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I'll ask him first since it ads to shipping. I think you can drill it out and tap it but I'm not sure how well it will hold since the top 1/2 of the ear is broke off.
-Adam
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This whole thread makes me wish I'd have kept that box of stock Harley CV carbs. Must have had a dozen of them. Most guys with carbed Harleys swapped them for 42 or 44mm Mikuni flatslides, and the stockers were relegated to scrap status. If a Sammy runs that well with a stock cv, I can only imagine how well it would work with a Mikuni flatslide. HUGE difference in performance, throttle response and tunability with the Mikuni. The CV carb is more suitable for rigs that see a lot of elevation changes of more than a few thousand feet at a time though, as the vacume operated slide is more able to compensate for the changes in air pressure. For pure performance though, the flatslide is the way to go. I wonder if someone has tried it yet?
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This whole thread makes me wish I'd have kept that box of stock Harley CV carbs. Must have had a dozen of them. Most guys with carbed Harleys swapped them for 42 or 44mm Mikuni flatslides, and the stockers were relegated to scrap status. If a Sammy runs that well with a stock cv, I can only imagine how well it would work with a Mikuni flatslide. HUGE difference in performance, throttle response and tunability with the Mikuni. The CV carb is more suitable for rigs that see a lot of elevation changes of more than a few thousand feet at a time though, as the vacume operated slide is more able to compensate for the changes in air pressure. For pure performance though, the flatslide is the way to go. I wonder if someone has tried it yet?
I looked at the Mikunis too. I just wanted to keep it more simple. 2 or 4 carb setups are more than I want to tackle. I was afraid of the amount of fuel they would gobble as well. This setup boasts 29 to 35 with reasonable driving. I'll have to see about that. If I can stay in the mid 20's I'll be happy. 29+ would be awsome. Ideally I'll get around 30 if I go easy and still have the capability of getting up and going when I need too. + I clean up my engine space some and no tuning headaches like I had with a previous weber. Hopefully it will be everything I think it's going to be. For $649 including shipping, I am expecting it too be.
-Adam
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I would send him both manifolds, maybe he will give you something for the bad one.
I think I can fix the old one. Two wrongs do make a right! I'll epoxy a couple of studs into the manifold holes so all you have to do is put a couple of nuts on the top over the water neck. Probably nylon lock nuts. This way they both match and it looks like it's suppose to be like that. Then it's worth something to somebody. I think I can pull it off. >:D >:D
-Adam
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Well, maybe a bit "back from the dead". I've been trolling threw the forum for the last couple hours. I hope to by a sami this week. The engine seems to be a 9.5 out of 10. The TC needs a new "guide" or something to help find the ranges ( basiclly the plate on top ).
Has stock running gear and 33'' tires. I know that's not an idea set-up, but, that's how it sits. Its gutted other than the dash, shifters, 2 seats, and roll bar. No windsheild, no doors, no roof/top. Guy is asking $1000. I offered him $500 yesturday. I'll prob. go $700, he said he wanted at least $800.
Anyway... More on topic, I desided to register early to give you guys this information. Weithe I get the sami or not.
http://www.gotpropane.com/p4.html#Suzuki (http://www.gotpropane.com/p4.html#Suzuki)
Propane injection.
Most people don't know much about it. I maybe am not an expert or anything. I do know this. I work on industal propane powered floor scrubbers made by a company called "tennant". They suck ass !!! They break all the time. Almost nothing on them last more than a year at a time, and they cost around $80K-$100K. BUT !!! I also know this... They run propane. I've torn a ford 1.3L industal apart and it was SPOTLESS. The valves, cylinders, heads, EVERYTHING. Also... While everything from the hydrastatic drive ( which normally hydraulics are super reliable ), to the radiator fan on this things have failed, the old and new propane/fuel system HAVE NOT ONCE EVER had an issue !!! My company ( publix supermarkets ) owns about 7-8 of these junky ass things for cleaning the warehouse floors, and not one of them, in ANY warehouse has had a fueling issue !!! Are warehouses range from a cool 40 degrees in the dead cold winter to 120 degrees in the summer in are "open air" warehouses, to -40 degrees in are frozen foods warehouse. The scrubbers run from outside FL heat to -40 degrees inside the frozen warehouse and NEVER miss a beat, and have NEVER needed adjusted.
I've delt with adding supplemental propane for added octane on turbocharged street cars, but never an entire fuel system, and since we never have to work on them, I don't know "the ins and outs" of the system, but I do know that propane burns SUPER CLEAN, and in my experence, its super reliable.
Also, I'm not sure about the fuel $$$ convertion, but I'd bet the propane is either cheaper or the same as gasoline.
If your really going to spend that kind of cash on a fuel carb. then maybe converting to propane maybe a good option to consider.
I've been told propane is equal to any from 100octane to 118octane. I know that the turbo/nitrous vipers and srt4s we run it on ( not 100% ) LOVES IT. With nitrous, we've never lost a motor when combining nitrous and propane. One of the stock block vipers runs a 400shot on a stock headed, stock short-block V-10 and its run 9.70 in the 1/4 mile on street tires !!! The other viper is the fastest street car in the country. It was in hot-rod magizine last month ( Nov. or Oct. ). Running 8.0|removethispart|@170 mph on street tires and 93octane, but sorry, no propane.
I hope to be a sami owner, but if not, hope this information helps to give you guys another option.
PS: I hate carbs, which is why I researched what I thought would be the most reiable carb set-up.
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Welcome aboard.
Believe me, I researched carbs too. I also looked into fuel injection. My understanding is that some people have pulled their fuel injection for this setup. I didn't want to go fuel injection because of all the labor it seemed like it would take to install it. I'm short on time. I haven't been doing 4 wheelin enough to go upside down or any other position that I would need constant fuel. Couldn't afford the repairs either. Right now I mostly work. This setup should install in an afternoon. That's why I wanted to give this setup a try.
I've heard f.i. as well as propane will keep your engine running at any angle. It sounds like this carb will too. . I actually saw a sidekick with the propane conversion go for around 2500.00 on ebay and I couldn't figure out why the guy didn't want more and why it didn't get snapped up sooner at the buy it now price. My other reservation about propane is that since this is my daily driver and I've been known to take a few 10 hour trips, I would hate to be out on the road looking for propane and I think I would have to store the tanks inside where my back seat is. Otherwise, it's a neat idea for crawling or just putting around town.
As far as my carb, it's supposed to ship from petroworks at the end of this coming week as soon as Gary gets done evacuating people from the wildfires or whatever it is he's doing. No big deal since I haven't had time to install it anyways.
I'll post when I'm done and let everyone know how it went. Maybe even throw in some pictures too. ;) ;) ;D ;D
Sorry this is a little disjointed. 5:30 and I can hardly stay awake. :sleepy: :sleepy:
-Adam
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Ole yea, I forgot to meantion, since the kit uses "forklift style" propane tanks, my fuel would cost.... $0 per pound. I could just fill it at work.
The idea I had was to carry two forklift tanks, but the website says that their yoda crawler runs all day on 7-8LBS. of propane ( about $10 in FL in think ), and I think the forkleft style tanks hold a lot more than that ( I think charcoal grill tanks hold 10LBS ).
The avalibilty of propane is the biggest down side. Not like your going to roll into a gas station in BFE and be like " I need 30lbs. of propane and a 12 pack of bud light".
The sami I'm checking into would be about 91% trail use, so not like it would be a weekly adventure to find propane.
I was also hoping you'd update us, I figured you'd have the carb by now.
I drove my wife by the sami I'm looking at today ( didn't wanna stop and seem over interested ), and she actully like it ( from 40 yards away ). Then I went and checked the other sami I wanted to buy ( for like $400 ), it was gone. It was just a sami with yoda axles, no driveline or wiring, but I could have used the windsheild, doors, and cab, plus I would have liked to have "bolt-on" yoda axle conversion. But... Snooze, and lose.
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Here is the my-side kit I got from myron over at zuksoffroad.com (http://zuksoffroad.com)
(http://www.zukikrawlers.com/albums/wheresmyhat/myside_003.jpg)
I picked up a couple of larger jets to bump the fuel up a little bit and then should be good to go.
He is also making a punch thru my-side2 kit.
I want to make a closed intake system instead of the open filter but other then that I am very happy with it.
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Nice set-up. What's your fuel mileage and with what size tires? How much was the this kit?
-Adam
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Nice set-up. What's your fuel mileage and with what size tires? How much was the this kit?
-Adam
The kit is around 250.00 and you supply the carb. Its a 40mm klien cv.
Click on the link its on there.
I need to get a new speedo cable before I can tell milleage. They say expect 25 to 30 mpg. I am in the process of rejeting the carb. Picked up the jets yesterday.
I am running spring over with 31's with the 4.10 tcase gears.
Theres also a my-side topic on zukikrawlers.com in the samurai engine section.
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I guess I'm paying a bit more for mine because it's suppose to be turnkey. I didn't want to have to screw around with it. Just bolt it up and adjust the mix and idle. I was assured that that was all I would have to do. It comes with the new 44. For what I'm paying, I would expect it to be completely hassle free so I'll see.
-Adam
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The only thing that might cause it from being a turn key is you supplying a used carb. Who knows why the owner swapped out a carb. Most move up to the 44mm because thats the next step from stock on there bikes. Thats why there is an abundance of used 40mm.
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The only thing that might cause it from being a turn key is you supplying a used carb. Who knows why the owner swapped out a carb. Most move up to the 44mm because thats the next step from stock on there bikes. Thats why there is an abundance of used 40mm.
I figure with a brand new carb already jetted and the rest of the kit, I'll be in good shape. If a guy know's what he's doing, I guess the kit you picked up would be a money saver. I didn't want to locate a good used carb and then have to possibly rebuild it and do any other modifications necessary. I'm paying a little more for the convenience + I'm getting all new components including a 44 carb. I don't see how I can go wrong. 8)
--Adam
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I priced a new 44 from a local bike shop and it wasn't that bad, but i imagine getting it jetted right would be not so fun!!!! Turnkey sounds the way to go to Me!!!! 8)
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I think you can send it off with an intake to petro and they'll do the work. Not sure how much you save. I didn't want to mess with it, just bolt it on. I think I'll have it this coming week. :) :)
-Adam
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It's finally here. Looks like an easy install. Maybe a couple hours for a slow meticulous guy like me.
Only problem is it's missing the choke kit, instructions, and the u.p.s. return tag for the core refund. :o :o >:( >:( It's been a month and a half since I ordered it and now I have to wait another week to install because it's too cold when I go to work in the early A.M. to run without a choke. I guess they're behind a little and got in a hurry to catch up. Bummer!! :'( :'(
-Adam
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I got it installed and took it for a test drive. Started right up. Idled at 1500 R.P.M when it warmed up. I made a couple adjustements and it seems pretty good. A little sputtery so I'll adjust my valves when I do my belt and see what happens. I took it for a short test. Seems like a bit more pickup. I also went 80 on a slight incline with more to spare. I'll drive it more this week and see how it goes. Kind of early to tell for sure on the performance gains.
Some problems I ran across.
1.Throttle cable is too long for this set-up. I had to adjust the bolts on the gas pedal to take enough slack out of the cable so I still had enough threads to tighten on the throttle mount plate by the carb. It was too close to the end where the little rubber nipple goes on near the carb end of the accelerator cable. That took probably an hour of investigation and adjustment. It works but I would have liked to not have it mounted so close to it's limit. :-\
2. The nut on the choke cable was wanting to cross thread because there is some sort of a clip that gets in the way when you try to start the nut on to mount it to the dash. I actually fought with that for over an hour. Maybe two. >:( I used some choice words and then finally got the threads fixed and got the nut to take. ;D
3. A little problem getting the wires all taped up. That's my fault for only having duct tape! ::)
I'll have to call Petroworks and find out about a couple of these problems. I took some pictures but there being held hostage by the camera until my wife can help me negotiate their release.
So far I'm pretty happy with the look but a little disappointed with a couple of the problems I had on the installation. I'm still in the testing stage for performance. Seems pretty good so far. ;D
-Adam