Lucky guy, here we do both water and sewer as well as the street department and the parks. I as well did the water projects as you do but got volunteered to be the water meter reader. Still end up having to go back and help when we get short handed or emergancies.

I don't know if bailing them out is a good idea but I know that gm has like 3.5 mil people working for them and ford is not to far behind, if those people don't have a job we (us tax payers) will still be paying for it. and there not the BIG three anymore (Toyota, Honda ) and the big two

 

Maybe with fuel prices dropping, their sales will get good enough to keep them afloat. All I know is, if they do stay open with or without the bailout money, I hope they open their eyes and realize gas guzzling vehicles are a thing of the past, they need to slow down production and make more compeditive options to the Japanese vehicles. I feel bad for the workers, but not the CEO's. Go to a dealer and look at the current prices of their half tons, and three quarter tons. Now think back to two, three years ago - and what the MSRP tag was then. Funny thing is, they're still making money off the majorly reduced pricing.

I hate to see most any company go under but if they cant manage it right then what else can be done but let it fail and hopefully that wll allow better run companies to move in.

Other auto companies have come and gone in the past and we were just fine.

Yes the big 3 employ a HUGE number of people but does that give them the right to strong arm the American people in to what amounts to protection money "bail us out OR ELSE-PPPFFFttt".

I say they (big 3 exec's) better pull their hands back, roll up their sleeves, get off their lasy fat butts and get to work.

I don't know if bailing them out is a good idea but I know that gm has like 3.5 mil people working for them and ford is not to far behind, if those people don't have a job we (us tax payers) will still be paying for it.

And that doesnt count the jobs lost in the Support, Sales, Parts, Etc.......The list goes on.
There is No Question the we are going to have to help.  I think the House finaly got it right.

Making THEM bring in the PLAN. lets see what and where our money is going for. We did this same thing with Chrysler and Lee Iocoka, And it was a complete sucess.

But the days of sitting back and just pushing thru ones pet projects are GONE. They have got to be competive.

Most of the issue here is also the American culture as well. We all Drove our nice SUV's. But if you look at the rest of the world, There was no market for them. Only here in America, and now Dodge has there new challanger.......Just sitting on the showroom floors....No takers.

Nobodys buying the Toys, and six months ago with Gas at $4.00 a Gal who would.
Whlie I can afford to drivemost anything I want, Most of us americans cant.
And I got to tell you when Gas hit $4.00 a Gal. I wasnt driving the 10 miles a gal H2.

So if they get there bailout, they better tool up on some pretty hip cars that are Earth friendly, and that folks want to and can afford to drive.

Now here is a good start.

Most of the issue here is also the American culture as well. We all Drove our nice SUV's. But if you look at the rest of the world, There was no market for them. Only here in America, and now Dodge has there new challanger.......Just sitting on the showroom floors....No takers.

Thats not true china has been buying all the trucks and SUV's from OUR big 3 (GM mostly I heard).
The chinese have been getting a fuel break while we here in the states were getting taxed the chinese were fuel subsidized and that lead to a bit of an unwarranted fuel demand but now the chinese have stopped the fuel subsidies I believe and demand is down over there along with the rest of the world.(for now)
Of course none of that changes the fact the big 3 need to get with it and make fuel efficient vehicles.

Now me being distrustful of our leaders feel since they are taxing our fuel they really dont want a bunch of fuel efficient cars running around over here lowering their fuel revenues.
I shouldnt even mention that our leaders have their hands in the fuel companies and are most likely setting up the next great fleecing of the American people with the "new techology".

I don't disagree with that about the Gas, Hell just look at the Bush admonistration.
We wont even go into the fact that he transfered his "Shares" in halliburton to his daughter family trust, and Halliburton got the NO BID Contract to supply all of our soldiers with everything from clothing to the food they eat. (oh yea and Dick Cheaney served on the board) I'm just saying that if we are going to put our monies up to bail them out, Then lets get creative as the Japanese and others have done, Bring the quality up, and create some nice vehicles that people WANT to buy.

There only in trouble because of lack of sales. and it didn't JUST Happen.
there sales have been declining over the last ten years or so as they just sat around and watched as the "Other auto makers" took over the lions share of the market place. Just My Opinion.

OK My turn. Wake up call people! It's not a bail-out, it's a loan. In the 1st year alone the automotive related jobs will return to our govt. over 40 billion dollars in income taxes and social security. The possible losses if the US auto industry goes down could extend to over 175 billion in the 1st year alone. 25 billion to save 175+++ billion? A no brainer!
    I don't know about you, but I'm in the middle class. The UAW and other unions protect the middle class. Where would most of us be without that steppingstone? The filthy rich want more slaves and the middle class stands in their way. Ask Russia and France what caused their revolutions. The Japanese govt. has subsidized ALL manufacturing in their country, even going as far as to manipulate the value of the yen to increase profits! Fair Trade? It's time we all make the kind of money union workers make, but we can't get there by beating them down! Any of you ever collect un-employment? Social Security? Medicall benefits? Have a safer work environment? Thank your unionized industrial workers.
   Your Welcome, Tone

Hey Tone, glad to have your input. You gotta realize though the the vast majority of the "middle class" works just as hard as you do, without the benefit of a union to fight their battles. Your right, I for one would sure like to have the benefits and pay of the average union auto worker. I know what they make, most of my family worked for Ford and GM. I think the real issue most of us are not happy about is the fact that we as a non union working class group,  who in most cases make far less than the average UAW , and definitely do not have the benefits of a UAW, Don't necessarily feel happy about having to have our tax money diverted to GM, or FORD or any other car co. that failed to make a product that would sell or be competitive. That's just crappy business practice.  You call it a "loan" with the return to the government 40 billion in taxes and social security payments the first year. Wouldn't  union workers have to pay taxes and social security anyway? How is that paying back the "loan?" I have to pay for at least half of my health insurance, I get no pension after 30, I sure as hell don't get to collect 90+% of my pay when out during slowdowns. The unions were a good thing when the major manufacturers were taking advantage of the labor force, but in my opinion there time has passed, at least the way they operate now. I agree, everyone should be paid a fair wage for their labor, but the amount of unionized waste I see everyday makes me want to scream rip off! I grew up in a union family, both Teamsters and UAW, and saw from an early age just how much those union guys got away with. Saw it FIRSTHAND. So yeah, I agree that in the beginning of the labor movement the unions were necessary, but now, personally, I think they just bleed the system. There are enough laws on the books so that unions are redundant. How do companies like Toyota manage to run manufacturing plants in America without unions and still have successful and desirable products without grumbling workers? BTW, how did you manage to tie social security into unionized industrial workers? I think your giving too much credit to unions. Safer work enviorment? Ever hear of OHSA? Besides if everyone who held a semi skilled job got paid a UAW wage and benefits, the last of America's slow moving products would surely be too overpriced for anyone in the rest of the world to afford them. How much more does the retirement benefit of the average auto worker in America add to the cost of producing a car? No wonder the competition can make and sell them cheaper. I don't hear anyone at the US Honda, or Toyota plants complaining. Ever consider maybe it's you guys that are making TOO much for what you do? Or maybe you think the guy working at Macdonalds should join a union a get $23.50 an hour to sell burgers. I know the unionized toll takers here in Jersey are making over $20 an hour to sit in their booth and collect money. Tough job for sure. How about the Septa bus Drivers ( union again) who make over $26 an hour for driving a bus. When does it stop being fair wage and start being overpaid? That's just my opinion. I'm sure I'm going to get flamed for this.

Happy Thanksgiiving Mike! I'm wondering when this is gonna get moved to the water cooler. Ok, lets start with OSHA. Did you know that their regulations were originally written in 1975? The only one that is still pertinent today is a vaguely written one that says something like once it has been demonstrated that a company can improve a condition, it must maintain it. I for one am glad that the standards I'm working under are not over 30 years old. Believe me, a company doesn't improve an unsafe condition out of love for their workers, but by the threat of a fine or a strike. Talk about tax payers money, how do you people feel about taking up the cost of injured workers that are being spit out of factories regulated by 30 year old laws? Ask some non-union coal miners this question! The Honda plant's safety record is atrocious.
   OK, I too am tired of protecting poor workers, in some cases govt. laws prevent us all from hiring the most qualified. Yet I am more against corporate big shots taking all of our profits instead of spreading it throughout the industries, updating technologies, making the US a competitive force in the world. It has been stated that the japanese company's worker is paid less than the U.S. worker's, that their costs are less. Kinda makes me wonder why their cars don't cost equally less. Wonder where those huge profits are going?    ("over there...over there")
  The japanese are much different than us, they are very loyal to themselves. They rarely buy anything non-japanese. Not even rice. In japan it is not unusual for Toyota & Honda workers to work for free, just to keep their jobs. Does this mean we should too?
  Take note people, when the rich republican's banking institutions started floundering, you paid to rescue them, to the tune of 700 billion. Yet when a few million middleclass democrats are going to lose their income, you're against loaning 1/25th of that?! Where do you think a million DETROITERS are going to go for work? Ha Ha... your town.

  Your arguments are too good to refute. I don't know the solution, but I'm open to suggestion. Is it too late for me to come back to Detroit and work for Ford?  PS, I'm an idependant leaning twards Democrat, and am willing to work for $20 hr + health ins.

The big 3 ARE hiring... but you'll have to move.... to CHINA!!!

Man, now that's ironic.  Gm basiclly closed Flint, turned it into a ghost town because nobody was buying Buicks. Now Buick is one of the, if not THE best selling American brand in China. Go figure.  What would really be "fair trade" is if they had to IMPORT Buicks from America. Let them buy our stuff fair and square. Screw Gm and whatever management team made the decision to build a factory in China. They should be made to eat Chinese cat food and drive rikshaws.

I work for GM.  15 year on the trade and 1 year as an engineer.

During the last contract GM asked for and got new hires for less wages.  So anyone new will start around $14 - $15 and will never reach the pay of older workers.  They will have less benifets and I don't think any retirement.  At the same time, they changed it so that when saleried employees reach the age of 65 they will loose all health care.  So GM is trying to cut the "fat" and it's up and coming workers will be just like everyone else in the nation.

Someone talked about GM not building the cars that people want and will buy.  Well, if you remember just a year ago or so, GM was building what people wanted.  Big SUV's, trucks and so on.  With the hit of $4 a gallon gas prices all those big vehicles now are not selling. 

So, what GM needs to do is to retool, and start building what people "Now" want.  How do you think they can do that?  Most vehicles are at least 5 years in the making.  They plan over the 5 years how they will produce that vehicle and how it will fit the buget.  Now people are asking GM do what takes 5 years to plan and save for to do it "NOW".  Oh yea, you have to do this without any kind of credit.

How many of us if they lost their car could go out and buy one with out any credit or financing?

GM needs cash money to do what needs to be done.  With the economy the way it is GM is doing all it can to just stay afloat.  With the loan, all the money can only be spent in the US and will be used to retool and bring the type of vehicle to the lots that people will by.

As for the other car companys (Honda, Toyota...)  If you look around you will see that they were also on the Big SUV/Truck market.  If you look you will see that they are laying off people, closing plants across the US that make these vehicles.  The thing they have over us is that they have the cash/money base from there own home country so that they can/are retooling for the smaller cars that they already have.

I like my GEO.  The reason I bought it was that it was a GM product.  If we loose the big 3 all that will be left will be the forgen vehicles.  Yes, they will fill the gaps that are left but we will be a nation dependent on forgin vehicles.

GM is doing really good things like the Volt, they are also the major contribuiter for for E-85 fuel and the resurech going into finding a different sorce other than corn.  That will help so that we are not so dependant of forgen oil.

I hope we are given the chance to prove what we are capable of as a US auto manufacture.

  I hope GM, Ford and other American car makers can survive and prosper, all I want is to be proud of American Made again, and be paid a fair wage for giving my time and health to the company. I've been talking with dustybadlands, and he made a very good point: the average auto worker isn't so much making "too" much, it's that the rest of us aren't making enough for what we do. It didn't make sense to me until he explained the ratio of cost to earnings thing, example: 30 years ago a candy bar cost 10 cents, a decent hourly wage was $3. Today, same candy bar, $1.00 good hourly wage: $30. Same ratio, so if that were the case, we should all be making more, correct? I still have a problem with $3.00 an hr being a good wage 30 years ago, but that's another story. Something besides the ratio of earnings to cost has changed. I think it's the greed of share holders and corporate elite. Today, it's not the product being made that's the concern of the manufacturers, it's the return to the " shareholders" that's most important. Screw everything else, as long as the shareholders get theirs. Cut corners everywhere you can, as long as the stock price returns  are good. I don't know about anyone else, but I really am tired of having our own government support corporate greed, and use the rest of us like disposable tools. I'm sick of being angry and damned if I'm going to live in fear.  Maybe the Europeans have a couple of good ideas after all, like the whole damn country going on strike until some things change. Isn't anyone else pissed off about the state of our country?