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Help on a no start issue........

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Offline Skyhiranger

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Help on a no start issue........
« on: December 08, 2008, 06:47:50 AM »
95, 2 door, 3 speed auto, 1.6 8V.
It won't start.......Even though it is getting spark and fuel.
The PO said it just died while he was driving (he said it made a loud noise, like when the muffler has a hole in it and you are decelerating....I'd guess like a "baaaawwwwww" sound......I'd venture to guess that is a normal sound for an auto tranny vehicle when the engine dies and you are coasting to a stop), he got it started back up, then it died again later never to start again.
I have verified.....
the cam/crank/disty timing is all in phase and it is timed correctly.
it is getting spark, and at the right time.  I pulled the wire off of each plug 1 at a time and stuck a spare plug on the wire and watched to see where the mark on the cam pulley was when each plug fired.....cam pulley mark at 6:00 when 1 fires, 9:00 when 3 fires, 12:00 when 4 fires, 3:00 when 2 fires.
the fuel pump runs and it is getting a good supply of fuel (very heavy fuel smell after cranking on it for awhile).  I have even went so far as to disconnect the fuel pump relay and use starting fluid to try to start it (just to eliminate the possibility of not enough fuel, water in the fuel, old fuel, etc.).
there are no broken rods, I have pulled the plugs, rotated the crank, and verified the pistons move up and down and are at TDC when they are supposed to be.

I have tried another ECM.
I have checked the error codes....there is none....it flashes a "12".
The distributor is adjusted in the middle of the adjustment range (this should be close enough to get it to run, or at least fire, which it does neither).
I have checked to make sure the lower timing belt sprocket is not loose on the crank....it is fine.

There is a very noticeable "rattle" at times when turning the engine over....I believe it is the rod bearings, because when I am turing the engine over by hand there seems to be "slop" in the crank, and when I barely turn the crank pulley back and forth I can hear and feel it do a "knock, knock"....but I don't believe bad rod bearings would cause it not to start, or fire.
The only thing I haven't checked is compression.....I guess it could make it not run, but it still should at least fire, right?  I would guess there would have to be virtually no compression for it to not even fire....Hmmm, maybe I need to check compression.
I have checked all the fuses to make sure they are good (both the ones under the dash and the ones in the engine compartment).  The only one I have had some issues with is the cigar/radio fuse.....I was moving some wires around up above the ECM and it popped it.  The PO had installed an aftermarket radio and done a half-assed job of making the wiring connections and insulating them.....so I am thinking that is probably what caused it (although the radio is a long way from the ECM area, where I was moving wires around when the fuse popped). :-\\
I have noticed that the black/green ground wire that runs from the thermostat housing area to the ECM has been very hot at some point and has melted the insulation on the wire.  I have found nothing that would have caused this wire to overheat.  I have verified there is continuity and no excessive resistance in the wire, from the tstat housing end back to the ECM end.  The PO had unwrapped some of the wiring harness in a few places (evidently checking this wire), and nowhere is this wire melted into other wires (to cause a short or an open in another wire).
I have swapped in another coil, ignitor (I think that is what it is....the little component that sits on the coil bracket), plug wires, rotor.....but I am getting spark, so I don't see any of these as being a problem.
I have gapped the plugs (NGK).  Hmm, now that I think of it, I can't remember if I checked to see if the plugs were good or not...I just stuck a spare plug on the end of the plug wire to make sure I was getting spark.....I'll check on that a post back.
I have ground on the 4 pins on the ECM plugs (B2, B10, B15, A4) and I have +12V on the 2 pins B1 and B7.

Note that I have tried/checked the basic stuff, so I am going to need some "outside of the box" suggestions on what to check/try next.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2008, 07:00:52 AM by Skyhiranger »
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Offline ack

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Re: Help on a no start issue........
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2008, 07:30:07 AM »
That's a TBI unit, right?

If so there should be pulses of fuel spray from the injector going into the throttle body at regular intervals.

The fuel stink may be coming from the cannister instead of the throttle body because all the fuel is returning - possibly because the injector is stuck closed or isn't getting a good trigger signal...

The above is pure speculation on my part... 
Ack

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Offline Skyhiranger

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Re: Help on a no start issue........
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2008, 08:41:13 AM »
That's a TBI unit, right?

If so there should be pulses of fuel spray from the injector going into the throttle body at regular intervals.

The fuel stink may be coming from the cannister instead of the throttle body because all the fuel is returning - possibly because the injector is stuck closed or isn't getting a good trigger signal...

The above is pure speculation on my part... 

I have tried using starting fluid and it still doesn't even fire.  So until I can get it to at least fire, I am not concerned about a stuck injector, old gas, water in the gas, low fuel pressure, etc. (which should have no effect on it firing, since I have been using starting fluid, to try to get it to at least fire.....right?).

Oh, and yeah, it is TBI.
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Offline IHBP

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Re: Help on a no start issue........
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2008, 05:04:56 PM »
does it have oil pressure?

have you pulled the valve cover off and looked at the cam?

This sounds somewhat like what happened when I had a shop rebuild my motor and they put the head gasket on upside down and blocked the oil to the head and ate my first big cam down to totally flat.

if you have fuel, and you have spark, and you have compression, mostly I believe it points to the cam because the only way it wouldn't fire is if the valves are not opening.

Good luck with getting it running

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Offline Skyhiranger

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Re: Help on a no start issue........
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2008, 05:51:26 PM »
does it have oil pressure?

have you pulled the valve cover off and looked at the cam?

This sounds somewhat like what happened when I had a shop rebuild my motor and they put the head gasket on upside down and blocked the oil to the head and ate my first big cam down to totally flat.

if you have fuel, and you have spark, and you have compression, mostly I believe it points to the cam because the only way it wouldn't fire is if the valves are not opening.

Good luck with getting it running

I don't know if it has oil pressure.  I had the valve cover off when I adjusted the valves (the cam lobes looked fine).  It has not had any recent head work done, and an engine won't live long without oil to the upper part of the engine.....so I am sure it is not a blocked oil passage/flat cam lobes issue.
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Offline Skyhiranger

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Re: Help on a no start issue........
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2008, 08:26:46 PM »
Update:
Dropped the oil pan, turned the engine over by hand, noticed the clunk I had been hearing was coming from the back of the crank, noticed the rear counterbalancer didn't always move "in phase" with the rest of the crank......rear most counterbalancer is broke right by #4 connecting rod journal.  Hmmmm, I specifically asked the PO if the engine "knocked" when it did run......he said "no, no knocking sound"......I guess that makes him stupid, or deaf, or a liar. ::)
A broken crank still doesn't explain why it won't fire, but I guess it's a moot point now.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2008, 08:39:29 PM by Skyhiranger »
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Offline TrakJD

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Re: Help on a no start issue........
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2008, 10:57:38 PM »
I had a similar problem, you could check the connector near the TPS, mine was loose until i hooked it up and bam it started.  But im still having problem with the battery draining.  Im still trying to find the shorts.

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Offline ZukiPower

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Re: Help on a no start issue........
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2008, 07:31:55 AM »
I use to have a similar problem on my '93 kick.
It was simply a bad TPS unit sending a false message to the EGM.  It was detecting a fully-open throttle even when it was really close, so the EGM don't open it.

I've replaced the TPS (5 minutes operation, about 40$) and all return to normal.

You can easily check the TPS with a simple ohm meter (Hayne's book show how to do it).

Hope it help!
There's a old saying in Quebec who said: "Grosse corvette, p'tite quequette!".  It means "Big cars are for those who have to compensate for a very small wiener".  Therefore, I love my VERY SMALL Zuki!!!

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Offline bandit86

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Re: Help on a no start issue........
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2008, 01:08:26 PM »
had a bad timing belt, skipped a few teeth, got me home running crappy but never started again
TO BOLDLY GO WHERE NO JEEP HAS GONE BEFORE!