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Rudy - The White Beast

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Offline bentparts

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Re: Rudy - The White Beast
« Reply #30 on: July 15, 2011, 05:25:01 PM »
Quick solution to that problem, nice work. You would think that for that much money they would fit a bit better though. I understand the need for large tolerences in suspension mounting on these trucks as most are pre-pounded, but having to add 1/4" of washers to make them fit seems a tad sloppy on their part. Did you compare them to the stock bushings in the control arms you removed ?
The usual stuff, and 2nd generation Air to liquid intercooled TURBOCHARGER

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Offline talonxracer

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Re: Rudy - The White Beast
« Reply #31 on: July 15, 2011, 06:38:31 PM »
The center bushings are the same length, they are the perfect length.
Tim "the toolman" Taylor is my HERO !!!

The only GOOD Commie is the commie taking a dirt nap....

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Offline TheZuke

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Re: Rudy - The White Beast
« Reply #32 on: July 16, 2011, 01:15:18 PM »
A discovery today,

While I was laying under the vehicle wiping some of the excess antisieze off, making youthfull engine noises and climbing imaginary mtns I pulled on the A-arm and it moved almost a quarter of an inch and thunked!

I knew immediatly what was happening, the a-arm's bushing were too short and the crush sleeve/center bushing was the correct length, thusly when the bushings were all greased up the A-arm could slide back and forth on the center bushing. I made a quick trip to the parts bin and found 8 large washers with a center hole of 3/4" to go over the center bushing, they fit perfectly and the A-arm has no movement, the washers will also help keep debris and stuff out of the bushings and they should last far longer. (crappy pic, macro feature screwed up on the camera, but ya get the idea) This is done to both the front and rear bushings on the a-arm. The washers are the gold colored parts between the outside of the poly bush and the frame Bracket.

I had the same issue and performed the same washer shim mod.  Actually, I was quite disappointed in the quality of the lift at that point.  Between having a shortage of bolts, sloppy fitting control arms and links (I did the same on the 3rd link too)  and the funky upper knuckle relocation bracket I was quite frustrated.  I also found that the polyurethane was quite soft.  Almost too soft in my opinion.  I like the way the vehicle handles on and off-road.  Very sweet off road but I am concerned about the longevity of the poly bushings.  I dont mean to badmouth a Canadian company but I do want to highlight the pros and cons of a suspension investment.  I am very interested in how a Calmini lift compares.  If any of you have experiences to share, please share them.  In Zukinations defense, I have installed 2 different ZN lifts in 2 different sidekicks and they both needed different thicknesses of washers in different locations.  So, maybe they design them this way to avoid fitment issues.
1990 Sidekick "The Zuke"  3/4" coil spacers, 33" tires and fender trimmin' to make em fit.  Not to mention all of the other trimmin'
1991 Sidekick "Rudy" Stock

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Offline talonxracer

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Re: Rudy - The White Beast
« Reply #33 on: July 16, 2011, 02:22:17 PM »
When I talked to Geoff he stated exactly that reason, though a few of these issues really should be addressed and will be. If the center bushing is the correct length and the arms are being CNC cut and commercially available bushings used then the washer thickness should be universal. I did discover that the rear arms rearward bushing washer needs to be a slightly smaller outside dia because the crossmember starts curving over and the large washer doesnt fit flushly.

A little creative fitment is always required, especially with a frame that has seen alot of little changes here and there over the years.
Tim "the toolman" Taylor is my HERO !!!

The only GOOD Commie is the commie taking a dirt nap....

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Offline bentparts

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Re: Rudy - The White Beast
« Reply #34 on: July 17, 2011, 07:32:55 AM »
I figured that was the case, room for adjustments. BUT, for that much coin I think they should provide a small selection of washers/shims/spacers with each kit. JMO.
The usual stuff, and 2nd generation Air to liquid intercooled TURBOCHARGER

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Offline TheZuke

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Re: Rudy - The White Beast
« Reply #35 on: July 17, 2011, 05:27:58 PM »
Yes, a washer/shim kit would be nice but, I do have to say that it does ride like a dream.  We went for a little rip yesterday and it handled admirably.  Geoff told me that I would not be disappointed in the ride and he was right.  We did a combination of gravel driving and washboards and rough hay field to test it out.  I couldn't wipe the smile off of my face and I feel that it is worth the cost.  It flexes very well through washouts and draws.  When I am nit picky in this build, you must remember that I am kind of picking it apart so that future investors know exactly what they are getting.  I wish that I had information like this available to me when I purchased it because then I would have had washers and bolts on hand prior to the lift's arrival.  I have no regrets for buying it but in my particular-ness, I may complain about less than ideal circumstances.  I feel that when you buy anything that is not custom tailored to your needs and desires, there will be shortchanges here and there.  If not, you are just too easy to please.   :)
1990 Sidekick "The Zuke"  3/4" coil spacers, 33" tires and fender trimmin' to make em fit.  Not to mention all of the other trimmin'
1991 Sidekick "Rudy" Stock

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Offline talonxracer

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Re: Rudy - The White Beast
« Reply #36 on: July 17, 2011, 08:49:16 PM »
Glad to hear you have her on the road/trail ! ! ! The ride from what I was told, is what sold me on the 4.5" lift. From the sounds of your first rides, I made the correct decision!   

Little things like the washers etc are an aggrevation for sure, but they are very easily handled. I have almost come to expect a few glitchs in everything that is custom in nature.

 I am really looking forwards to getting mine finished up, probably not till next weekend though :(   
Tim "the toolman" Taylor is my HERO !!!

The only GOOD Commie is the commie taking a dirt nap....

Re: Rudy - The White Beast
« Reply #37 on: July 18, 2011, 09:29:27 AM »
I am thinking of trying to widen (Hagen Style) the 4.5" lift to fit Toyota CV Axles in the front end, any feed back on that ?

P.S. Please post some video / pictures of this thing wheeling.   

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Offline bentparts

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Re: Rudy - The White Beast
« Reply #38 on: July 19, 2011, 04:06:45 AM »
With the knuckle already moved forward and out with this lift kit, don't know if the widening is necessary or even wise. Fitting Toy cv's would be a completely new mod since the ZN lift is so new.
The usual stuff, and 2nd generation Air to liquid intercooled TURBOCHARGER

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Offline djlantis57

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Re: Rudy - The White Beast
« Reply #39 on: July 21, 2011, 11:17:07 AM »
With all of that said, if caster was the real issue, I would like to see a strut relocation bracket/strut spacer that moves the whole strut forward with the knuckle thus negating the need for said upper knuckle relocation bracket.  I would also like to see it moved to a location that compensated for camber too.  If you have to make a spacer, it just as well do something.  To their credit, their spacer is offset a little.  I'm guessing it makes up for the rest of the difference that the thickness of the knuckle does not.  I'm sure that this makes no sense to anyone but me but I trying.
The only issue with this, why I don't think any suspension company (Altered Ego, Calmini, etc) sells parts with a camber compensation, is because there are too many wheel/tire combinations and choices available to the end user.  For example, if they sold a kit with camber adjustment built-in, designed for a 31x10.50 tire on a 15x8 rim with 2.5" backspacing, and someone used a 15x7 rim with 3.75" BS, and the camber adjustment was off, you can bet this customer would be complaining.  Add to that the fact that not every 31x10.50 is a "true" 31x10.50 tire, as all manufacturers have different specs. 
All of this creates too many variables to control, which would make it harder to guarantee a 100% compensation for camber. 
From a production/manufacturing standpoint, it just wouldn't make any sense.  By NOT having camber compensation, and by selling "adjustable" camber bolts and such, they can sell this kit to virtually anyone with all sorts of tire/rim/backspacing combinations, instead of limiting their potential customer pool to a select few customers with those certain specifications.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2011, 11:52:01 AM by djlantis57 »
God put me on earth to accomplish a certain number of things.  Right now I am so far behind, I will never die.
90 Tracker LSi 2dr tintop 5spd: slow toy . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 08 Pontiac G8 GT: fast toy
90 Tracker LSi 2dr 5spd: SOLD.......95 Tracker 2dr 5spd: parts..........90 Sidekick JX 5spd: HI, my name's DJ and I have an addiction.........93 Tracker 2dr 2wd 5spd: PS donor/poss. 4x4 swap from 95 parts

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Offline talonxracer

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Re: Rudy - The White Beast
« Reply #40 on: July 21, 2011, 12:23:00 PM »
What size and backspacing on wheels and size of the tires that one installs has absolutely nothing to do with camber or camber correction one little bit. Fitment is the only concern. It doesnt matter if you have +3" or negative 3" of backspacing the camber remains the same, and it also doesnt matter if you have a 10" dia tire or a 100" dia tire the camber does not change.

The altered ego strut spacers are INDEED CAMBER CORRECTED ! In fact each of their different height spacers each have a different correction factor.

And the Altered Ego 4.5" kit requires slots to be fabricated in the struts(if you dont buy their pre-modified ones) for additional camber control.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2011, 12:28:10 PM by talonxracer »
Tim "the toolman" Taylor is my HERO !!!

The only GOOD Commie is the commie taking a dirt nap....

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Offline djlantis57

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Re: Rudy - The White Beast
« Reply #41 on: July 21, 2011, 01:54:02 PM »
True, diameter doesn't matter much, but the width/backspacing can change camber...smaller backspacing (aka wider stance) means more leverage upon the spring since the control arm acts as a lever with the fulcrum at the frame.  The more leverage, the more the spring will compress.  Less leverage can be attained with stock rims or others with larger backspacing (narrower track width) and the spring will compress less due to the decreased leverage.  This difference in compression should have an effect on camber alignment (even minor misalign not visible to the naked eye).
The altered ego strut spacers are INDEED CAMBER CORRECTED ! In fact each of their different height spacers each have a different correction factor.
Damn, that sounds cool though.  Different levels of adjustment.  Sounds like yet another cool feature.  
I really like what I've read about this kit and seen a few pictures it looks great so far.  Would like to see some more pictures and rigs finished so start chaining that camera to you and good luck to both you guys installing it (thezuke and talonx)!  8)
« Last Edit: July 21, 2011, 01:57:02 PM by djlantis57 »
God put me on earth to accomplish a certain number of things.  Right now I am so far behind, I will never die.
90 Tracker LSi 2dr tintop 5spd: slow toy . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 08 Pontiac G8 GT: fast toy
90 Tracker LSi 2dr 5spd: SOLD.......95 Tracker 2dr 5spd: parts..........90 Sidekick JX 5spd: HI, my name's DJ and I have an addiction.........93 Tracker 2dr 2wd 5spd: PS donor/poss. 4x4 swap from 95 parts

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Offline talonxracer

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Re: Rudy - The White Beast
« Reply #42 on: July 21, 2011, 02:42:38 PM »
You can have 1 mile of backspacing and it WILL NOT change the camber one little bit regardless of whatever kind of leverage is applied, camber is measured in a static condition, NOT during suspension cycling, I can put 5" back spaced wheels on and put stock wheels on and the camber will be identicle between the two, the suspension sits in the same location regardless of the wheels installed. Sure the leverage will work the suspension more, but that can NOT change the camber in a static condition(when you measure camber)(the camber does change during suspension movement, all mcpherson struts change camber during operation).
Tim "the toolman" Taylor is my HERO !!!

The only GOOD Commie is the commie taking a dirt nap....

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Offline bentparts

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Re: Rudy - The White Beast
« Reply #43 on: July 21, 2011, 04:55:06 PM »
I beg to differ talonx, I agree with DJlantis on this and can say from experience. You are correct in THEORY, but where the rubber hits the road ther are REAL differences in effective, actual camber with different wheel offsets due to exactly what dj said: leverage at the fulcrum point.
 This probably only applies to the Trackick front ends as it relies on the strut and coil length as well as weight to set camber. Most other IFS type suspensions have upper AND lower control arms and camber is not nearly as affected by coil, leverage and wheel issues, if at all.
 You can set up your Trackick to have 0 camber (ideal) with one set of rims and tires, say 32" on 8" rim with 3.5" backspace and swap for a different offset wheel/tire combination and you will get a different camber setting because of the increased/decreased leverage caused by the offset changing the leverage point. I've swapped wheels and tire combinations, from a 8" with 32's and 3.5 backspacing to 5.5" stock rims with 31 swampers and almost no backspacing and indeed there is a noticeable difference in camber.
 This is exactly why Calmini reccomends a specific rim backspacing for their lift, 3.5" I believe, to provide the correct leverage, ride height,  and camber adjustability. Once your lift is all finished and you have the tires and rims your going to run installed, get a proper alignment and camber adjustment so it's set to factory spec, 0 degrees camber  0 degrees toe, and if you get a chance, just for ha ha's, swap to a stock set of rims and tires if you got them. You'll see the diff.
The usual stuff, and 2nd generation Air to liquid intercooled TURBOCHARGER

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Offline talonxracer

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Re: Rudy - The White Beast
« Reply #44 on: July 21, 2011, 06:12:33 PM »
I just cant see that. I went out and tried exactly that, put the 31's on(15x8x3.5"bs) and then installed the stockies and there was absolutely no difference in camber while sitting there. One thing you have to make sure of is that when you drop the vehicle back down that the front suspension be allowed to settle, as in just like on a alignment rack you have a slider that allows the tires to sit properly and squarely on the ground. Now when i didnt place wheel dolleys under the wheels then yes the suspension stays loaded and you will see a difference because the suspension is not sitting at the same height(not above ground, but as measured from the strut mount to A-arm(spring compression)), remember I did say that camber changes as the suspension travels through it's arc, what you are experiencing is exactly that, the suspension is not sitting the same. Heck even just lifting the front wheels up off the ground and setting the kick back down will change the camber measurement if dolleys are not under the wheels to allow them to spread apart and sit in their natural static position.

If you want a very real first hand experience with this go to a Polaris shop and check out any of their ATV's with mcpherson stuts when parked on carpet, jack it up and then set it back down, the ATV sits alot higher and the camber is very evidently different.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2011, 06:22:37 PM by talonxracer »
Tim "the toolman" Taylor is my HERO !!!

The only GOOD Commie is the commie taking a dirt nap....